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Thread: 50% replacement in GB Patterson et al in review

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    We don't know for sure, but its clear it can't be earlier than Western Urnfield and no later than La Tene for most of the British Isles. Some pockets might have been non-Celtic up to more recent times. Nobody really knows.
    Even Western Urnfield and Western Hallstatt were not all Celtic, but these cultures were the first spreaders, no earlier, which fits into EIA and most of the linguistic evidence which is absolutely not in favour of anything before the LBA.
    In fact, I think West Hallstatt was Celtic (East perhaps not). And as you said, Celtic can't be older than LBA. So, with 900 BC, it is right on the spot.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    In fact, I think West Hallstatt was Celtic (East perhaps not). And as you said, Celtic can't be older than LBA. So, with 900 BC, it is right on the spot.
    that basically means two things ( if the theory is correct and will be confirmed by future data)

    1) The likely place of origin of proto-celtic is the RSFO sub culture of the Urnfield complex: Rhin-Suisse-France Orientale with the likely partecipation of the Canegrate cultural horizon
    2) the convergence between celtic and germanic is not due to old contact but is due to the one way influence of celtic upon germanic during the iron age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    In fact, I think West Hallstatt was Celtic (East perhaps not). And as you said, Celtic can't be older than LBA. So, with 900 BC, it is right on the spot.
    In Hallstatt the Western standard culture appears to be Celtic or at least the common people were. But in a lot of Hallstatt it might go down to the exact provinces and archaeological regional groups as to what ethnicity they really were.
    La Tene was far more homogeneous. Eastern Hallstatt even more heterogeneous.

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  7. #14
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    Just want to recall the long and very rich thread we devoted last year to Koch and co., and beyond Koch to, roughly said, the Celtic question: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....he-West-theory .
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    I wrote this yesterday in another thread:

    "If we see continental R-L21 branches replacing older British/Irish Bell Beaker R-L21 branches like R-DF13, then it's likely that the LBA turnover is simply Celtic tribes replacing other Celtic tribes, maybe even Q-Celtic for P-Celtic. If we only see 50% on the English coast but not in Scotland or Ireland, we'll know this is not likely related to massive linguistic shifts."

    To which Alan added:

    "Word I’ve heard is the change is mostly not male driven. Maybe more likely sustained friendly intermarriage across the channel. The extremely close connections between southern England and northern France/Belgium/Southern Holland in the middle Bronze Age has suggested that for a long time."
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    I wrote this yesterday in another thread:

    "If we see continental R-L21 branches replacing older British/Irish Bell Beaker R-L21 branches like R-DF13, then it's likely that the LBA turnover is simply Celtic tribes replacing other Celtic tribes, maybe even Q-Celtic for P-Celtic. If we only see 50% on the English coast but not in Scotland or Ireland, we'll know this is not likely related to massive linguistic shifts."

    To which Alan added:

    "Word I’ve heard is the change is mostly not male driven. Maybe more likely sustained friendly intermarriage across the channel. The extremely close connections between southern England and northern France/Belgium/Southern Holland in the middle Bronze Age has suggested that for a long time."
    DF13 is not specific to English or Irish subclades. Too common on the Continent for that. In fact, DF13 could be from the Continent itself and predate BBs migration to the Isles.

    I am far from certain that "northern France/Belgium/Southern Holland" did have more EEF admixture thant the Isles during MBA (or LBA). Cultural ties are very strong during all BA. Which is probably meaning the same population, or a closeness:
    https://books.openedition.org/artehis/18261?lang=fr

    But the more important thing is what Reich said: this is an event during LBA. This is excluding a long period of admixture including MBA. We are dealing with a couple of centuries here, not much more. The surge is just between 1000 and and 800 (look at my first post, second picture), not before. There is a pink arrow.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 10-13-2021 at 02:24 AM.

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  13. #17
    What is your opinion about it:

    "Genetic analysis of individuals associated with the Late Hallstatt culture from Baden-Württemberg Germany considered to be examples of Iron Age "princely burials" included haplogroup U7."

    U7 seems to be related to Iranian-related ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ramz View Post
    What is your opinion about it:

    "Genetic analysis of individuals associated with the Late Hallstatt culture from Baden-Württemberg Germany considered to be examples of Iron Age "princely burials" included haplogroup U7."

    U7 seems to be related to Iranian-related ancestry.
    That's one of my predictions for long, that the Hallstatt elite was aristocratic and influenced by Thraco-Cimmerians, culturally and at least in some regions genetically. When the Scythians destabilised the Hallstatt sphere, in many places there were local revolutions and destructions.
    The combination of Scythian influences and local change led to La Tene Celts. Hallstatt Was much more Eastern oriented, more Thraco-Cimmerian and Greeks Mediterranean influenced in comparison. Only with La Tene the West became first more independent and then dominated much of Europe.
    The Hallstatt elite will be more often Eastern and Southern than the commoners. This will be more pronounced in Eastern Hallstatt though.
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-12-2021 at 04:00 PM.

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  16. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramz View Post
    What is your opinion about it:

    "Genetic analysis of individuals associated with the Late Hallstatt culture from Baden-Württemberg Germany considered to be examples of Iron Age "princely burials" included haplogroup U7."

    U7 seems to be related to Iranian-related ancestry.
    What you don't seem to understand, is that chronology is important. Iron Age is not Bronze Age, nor Neolithic. Iranian-related ancestry is absent in the Steppe making pool. It is meaning that Steppe admixture doesn't need any Iranian ancestry to be modelised. Not that you can't have some individuals with Iranian related ancestry (we always have outliers in a said population).

    You are using an IA individual to extrapolate to individuals living 3000 years before, in a completely different region. Meaningless, don't you think?

    During BA, long distance trade was common, in fact, BA is known for its important trade routes. Amber from the Baltic Sea, tin from the British Islands were exported to Mediterranean Bassin (including Egypt and the Levant):
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...al_Perspective

    Hallstatt princes owned their wealth to this transeuropean trade.

    Do you think that tin or amber travelled by themselves? Do you think that trophy wives didn't existed at the time?
    https://www.pnas.org/content/114/38/10083.abstract
    Last edited by ffoucart; 10-12-2021 at 03:59 PM.

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  18. #20
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    From Eastern Hallstatt we know Thraco-Cimmerian and Basarabi elite burials, for both males and later more females. So it seems an elite with Eastern affinities came in and later kept the ties alive through exchange and marriage networks.
    Eastern Hallstatt had an intermediate position between Daco-Thracians and Iranians on the one, and Celts, Illyrians and Pannonians on the other side.
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-12-2021 at 04:06 PM.

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