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Thread: 50% replacement in GB Patterson et al in review

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    I wrote this yesterday in another thread:

    "If we see continental R-L21 branches replacing older British/Irish Bell Beaker R-L21 branches like R-DF13, then it's likely that the LBA turnover is simply Celtic tribes replacing other Celtic tribes, maybe even Q-Celtic for P-Celtic. If we only see 50% on the English coast but not in Scotland or Ireland, we'll know this is not likely related to massive linguistic shifts."

    To which Alan added:

    "Word Iíve heard is the change is mostly not male driven. Maybe more likely sustained friendly intermarriage across the channel. The extremely close connections between southern England and northern France/Belgium/Southern Holland in the middle Bronze Age has suggested that for a long time."
    If there is a legit 50% genetic replacement in southern England during the LBA its for sure not going to be mainly female mediated.

    I dont think Celts replacing Celts make a lot ot sense during the LBA because Proto-Celtic has common words for iron as well as other things pointing to an LBA/EIA ethnogenesis for the Celtic peoples.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    That's one of my predictions for long, that the Hallstatt elite was aristocratic and influenced by Thraco-Cimmerians, culturally and at least in some regions genetically. When the Scythians destabilised the Hallstatt sphere, in many places there were local revolutions and destructions.
    The combination of Scythian influences and local change led to La Tene Celts. Hallstatt Was much more Eastern oriented, more Thraco-Cimmerian and Greeks Mediterranean influenced in comparison. Only with La Tene the West became first more independent and then dominated much of Europe.
    The Hallstatt elite will be more often Eastern and Southern than the commoners. This will be more pronounced in Eastern Hallstatt though.
    We know they took women from everywhere. There is nothing to suggest the Y-lines were exotic, especially with a 50% replacement of southern England - assuming accuracy here. Some more "exotic" lines like E-V13, J2b2, and G2-P303 were likely in the mix, especially the latter. What remains to be seen is how much of the Yamnaya I2-M223, and any R1a/I1 were involved as well.

    This is likely the entry point of DF27,U152, and maybe U106 in England. Just my take though.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster 1100 BC
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  5. #23
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    I don't care to get into a debate about this with those who believe otherwise, but just for the hell of it let me make my opinion known while we wait for the study: the introduction of Celtic into Britain during the LBA makes a lot more sense to me than it coming with the Beakers and evolving in situ. I guess the Beakers might have been Italo-Celtic speakers, but Celtic proper? Yeah, I don't think so. The conversations I've had with Ag has also convinced me that too much has been made of the q and p distinctions.
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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    From a talk by David Reich (july 21):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXsNKNZtdM0

    Attachment 46997
    Attachment 46998

    50% replacement in LBA in GB (Patterson et al in review)

    Most likely migration of Celts, don't you think?
    Urnfield in the continental NW waiting to take the the boat?
    Last edited by Finn; 10-12-2021 at 06:24 PM.

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  9. #25
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    In the metalphor of archeologist Sprockhoff (google translate):

    The newcomers to the south of England appear to a certain extent in hats and coats of the Urnfield culture. Underneath, however, are the Emslanders and the Lower Rhine, just like at home in a dressing gown and slippers.
    https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.d...cle/view/43840

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  11. #26
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    From Wikipedia article on Atlantic Bronze Age:

    The origins of the Celts were attributed to this period in 2008 by John T. Koch[8] and supported by Barry Cunliffe,[9] who argued for the past development of Celtic as an Atlantic lingua franca, later spreading into mainland Europe.[5] They argue that communities adopted early Late Bronze Age Urnfield (Bronze D and Hallstatt A) elite status markers such as grip-tongue swords and sheet-bronze metalwork, along with new specialist know-how needed for their production and ritual knowledge about their 'proper' treatment upon deposition.[10] which they see as indicating possible processes linked to language shift.[10] In 2013, Koch saw this east to west elite contact as the simplest explanation for the genesis of Celtic languages with a Proto-Celtic homeland in west-central Europe.[11] However, this stands in contrast to what remains the more generally accepted view that Celtic origins lie with the Central European Hallstatt C culture.
    I'm sure Koch and Cunliffe will be paying close attention to this study.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    From Wikipedia article on Atlantic Bronze Age:

    The origins of the Celts were attributed to this period in 2008 by John T. Koch[8] and supported by Barry Cunliffe,[9] who argued for the past development of Celtic as an Atlantic lingua franca, later spreading into mainland Europe.[5] They argue that communities adopted early Late Bronze Age Urnfield (Bronze D and Hallstatt A) elite status markers such as grip-tongue swords and sheet-bronze metalwork, along with new specialist know-how needed for their production and ritual knowledge about their 'proper' treatment upon deposition.[10] which they see as indicating possible processes linked to language shift.[10] In 2013, Koch saw this east to west elite contact as the simplest explanation for the genesis of Celtic languages with a Proto-Celtic homeland in west-central Europe.[11] However, this stands in contrast to what remains the more generally accepted view that Celtic origins lie with the Central European Hallstatt C culture.
    I'm sure Koch and Cunliffe will be paying close attention to this study.
    Maps of the sword trade network in the centuries before the GB DNA replacement that is theorized:

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...tance_Mobility

    Many objects were traded and exchanged across long dis-tances at that time, but this contribution will concentrate on a particular class of cut-and-thrust, flange-hilted swords, also known as Naue II type (and belonging to the so-called Griffzungenschwerter family of European swords). It is a commonly held view that these swords originated in the region of the Eastern Alps and the Carpathian Basin in the 13th century BC (Foltiny 1964). They can be characterised as long and heavy weapons with distinctive parallel-sided cutting edges and a thick cross section. Their technological features make Naue II swords robust, stable and resistant to bending (a great advantage in comparison to other swords of the Aegean Late Bronze Age) and at the same time give them more penetrating power (cf. Jung and Mehofer 2008; Kristiansen 2002). It has, therefore, been argued that the appearance of Naue II swords, used for thrusting and cut-ting and suitable for close-quarters hand-to-hand combat, must have brought about a significant change in the fight-ing techniques of the Late Bronze Age (cf. Drews 1993)
    Last edited by Dewsloth; 10-12-2021 at 06:11 PM.
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    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    We know they took women from everywhere. There is nothing to suggest the Y-lines were exotic, especially with a 50% replacement of southern England - assuming accuracy here. Some more "exotic" lines like E-V13, J2b2, and G2-P303 were likely in the mix, especially the latter. What remains to be seen is how much of the Yamnaya I2-M223, and any R1a/I1 were involved as well.
    Yes, those lineages will be seen as well, in the Iron Age, no doubt about it. The question is rather what you consider exotic. From my point of view Urnfield and Hallstatt spread in a wave-like movement, with one tribe being overtaken, taking the next, and next and next. The original starters of this movements came from Eastern Central Europe and the steppe, but they didn't replace the ethnicity and language everywhere, in fact, their contribution will decrease one step after another, and in the West the Proto-Celts just taking the ball and carrying on, spreading themselves on top of the Atlantic Face Bronze Age groups, derived from Bell Beakers, which were different people. In this process most of the replacement will happen from local French lineages, with a limited addition from the East, taking over in Britain. Obviously, by just looking at the yDNA, this won't be a big replacemant above the subclades. Its the subclades which matter, as well as the newly arriving lineages. Like if you have in a sample 10-20 percent of Central European "exotic lineages", especially E-V13, J-L283 and G2 in the mix, coming from Urnfield-related movements, you can extrapolate how big the impact was, because they won't be in the majority even in France. So even a mild appearance of 5 percent "exotic lineages", might represent a huge male lineage replacement in Britain, with the majority of the newcomers being just R1b, like expected.

    This is likely the entry point of DF27,U152, and maybe U106 in England. Just my take though.
    We'll see whether R-U106 being more limited to Proto-Germanics or wider spread among Celts, and which subclades represent what. For all of that, even the more exotic ones, the subclades are key, so I just hope they use the best methods for retrieving yDNA, just like in some new studies, which really makes a huge difference. That's the only way to go. Just stating that the local population was still majority-wise R1b means missing the point. Like what else? In between the Central Eastern European starters and Britain are so many R1b heavy people, all involved into this, and even the starters in Eastern Central Europe will have their portion of it, that this means absolutely nothing. We're talking about isolated Atlantic Bell Beakers being replaced by acculturated-mixed German-French Bell Beakers, largely.

    The idea that the Late Bronze Age Urnfield expansion and the introduction of iron weapons could have gone without large scale replacements is completely erroneous in itself. These transitions allowed the early adopters and spreaders to profit big scale from it. The very idea that anybody would share such technological innovations for nothing is absurd. People, and especially the clans at work at that time, surely weren't that stupid to just give the advantage away. From the Eastern Central European sphere, some fortresses of Gava might even have tried, similar to Hittites, to protect the secret of iron metal work. It didn't work out on the long run, but some generations in which they were ahead sufficed to replace almost the whole Balkan. For sure it wasn't much different in the West.
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-12-2021 at 06:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    If there is a legit 50% genetic replacement in southern England during the LBA its for sure not going to be mainly female mediated.

    I dont think Celts replacing Celts make a lot ot sense during the LBA because Proto-Celtic has common words for iron as well as other things pointing to an LBA/EIA ethnogenesis for the Celtic peoples.
    For now, I'll take it that Alan heard that from a reliable source. Like I said, if there is a uni-paternal upheaval of 50% in Scotland and Ireland, then I'll bite. A 50% autosomal replacement with 100% L21 continuity along the southern coast of England will be very unconvincing however. Let's see what the details of the data are.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Yes, those lineages will be seen as well, in the Iron Age, no doubt about it. The question is rather what you consider exotic. From my point of view Urnfield and Hallstatt spread in a wave-like movement, with one tribe being overtaken, taking the next, and next and next. The original starters of this movements came from Eastern Central Europe and the steppe, but they didn't replace the ethnicity and language everywhere, in fact, their contribution will decrease one step after another, and in the West the Proto-Celts just taking the ball and carrying on, spreading themselves on top of the Atlantic Face Bronze Age groups, derived from Bell Beakers, which were different people. In this process most of the replacement will happen from local French lineages, with a limited addition from the East, taking over in Britain. Obviously, by just looking at the yDNA, this won't be a big replacemant above the subclades. Its the subclades which matter, as well as the newly arriving lineages. Like if you have in a sample 10-20 percent of Central European "exotic lineages", especially E-V13, J-L283 and G2 in the mix, coming from Urnfield-related movements, you can extrapolate how big the impact was, because they won't be in the majority even in France. So even a mild appearance of 5 percent "exotic lineages", might represent a huge male lineage replacement in Britain, with the majority of the newcomers being just R1b, like expected.



    We'll see whether R-U106 being more limited to Proto-Germanics or wider spread among Celts, and which subclades represent what. For all of that, even the more exotic ones, the subclades are key, so I just hope they use the best methods for retrieving yDNA, just like in some new studies, which really makes a huge difference. That's the only way to go. Just stating that the local population was still majority-wise R1b means missing the point. Like what else? In between the Central Eastern European starters and Britain are so many R1b heavy people, all involved into this, and even the starters in Eastern Central Europe will have their portion of it, that this means absolutely nothing. We're talking about isolated Atlantic Bell Beakers being replaced by acculturated-mixed German-French Bell Beakers, largely.

    The idea that the Late Bronze Age Urnfield expansion and the introduction of iron weapons could have gone without large scale replacements is completely erroneous in itself. These transitions allowed the early adopters and spreaders to profit big scale from it. The very idea that anybody would share such technological innovations for nothing is absurd. People, and especially the clans at work at that time, surely weren't that stupid to just give the advantage away. From the Eastern Central European sphere, some fortresses of Gava might even have tried, similar to Hittites, to protect the secret of iron metal work. It didn't work out on the long run, but some generations in which they were ahead sufficed to replace almost the whole Balkan. For sure it wasn't much different in the West.
    Iain mc Donald is pretty sure that Tumulus (flowing into Urnfield) spread some (not all!) R1b U106 lines, for example R1b-L1 subclade beneath DF96. This most probably also affected the by Sprockhoff mentioned Emsland/ Lower Rhine area.

    So it could be that some R1b U106 took the boat 1500 years earlier than via the Anglo-Saxons?
    Last edited by Finn; 10-12-2021 at 07:15 PM.

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