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Thread: 50% replacement in GB Patterson et al in review

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    So we have:

    1. The linguists' consensus that Pictish was a Celtic language (not the opinions of online forum posters).
    2. We have geneticists finding that Scotland did not see an increase in EEF during the Late Bronze Age.
    3. We have Ian Armit revealing that "It is STRIKING...that many of those who moved appear to have been FEMALE". Ian Armit is sure to be a co-author with Harvard as him and David Reich have co-authored together recently and Armit's abstract is clearly referencing the large Harvard study.

    While I proposed an Iron Age movement of U152 into southern Britain over a decade ago (see my archived U152.org site) and it would be cool for U152 to be responsible for both Italic and Celtic, the data simply does not support these late Celtic scenarios.
    please elaborate. Where celtic emerged and how managed to expand, including timing. Explain why all other indoeuropean languages ( sub branch) were born in a precise location while apparently celtic was spoken everywhere in the post beaker world except the alps of course. The genaral consensus is that proto celtic emerged in 1300/1200 BC. How it managed to spread from Scotland?
    Elaborate.

    Many of those who moved does not mean they were all female. It means there were males and females. Many does not mean all IIRC
    Last edited by etrusco; 10-31-2021 at 09:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    please elaborate. Where celtic emerged and how managed to expand, including timing. Explain why all other indoeuropean languages ( sub branch) were born in a precise location while apparently celtic was spoken everywhere in the post beaker world except the alps of course. The genaral consensus is that proto celtic emerged in 1300/1200 BC. How it managed to spread from Scotland?
    Elaborate.

    Many of those who moved does not mean they were all female. It means there were males and females. Many does not mean all IIRC
    Obviously you are inserting a narrative that I neither made nor support - that Celtic was born in Scotland. That is absurd.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
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    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
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    Quote Originally Posted by teepean47 View Post
    I did start downloading BAMs but ENA is very slow at the moment. At least for me.
    I am guessing it is very slow, I attempted to download one and it never even started after 5 min
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222>Y15245

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    Still, even in the scenario where there was a gradual language shift over-and-back during the second millennium BC, this relatively large immigration ca. 1000 BC would have accelerated this process significantly.
    well yes that is true but England was in the Atlantic system until after that period. in fact detailed studies by the likes of Milicent and others show it was still very Atlantic in Hallstatt C and that most of the western Hallstatt C material in France is actually Atlantic in origin. itís only with Hallstatt D that central European influence take hold at Atlantic expense. thatís no earlier than 650BC and even then it must be said that Hallstatt D is weak and rare in Britain - pretty well absent outside the south of England. 650BC is of course much later than the shift they are describing around 900BC.

    whateverí happened around 1000/900BC came from the Atlantic network which was at its zenith. That specific period is called the Wallington (south england) and Wilburton (north england) and is parallel with and influenced by urnfield (hallstatt A2 and B1) c. 1150-950BC. This is followed by the very interesting more insular Ewart Park phase in Britain at the very end of urnfield (very end of Hallstatt B - maybe around 950-800BC) that has recently been realised to be ancestral to much of the Hallstatt C material in the west (gundlingen swords, chapes, buckets etc, rendering Hallstatt C material in the British isles and much of ĎGaulí useless as an indicator of migration from central Europe. it is now realised it was only in Hallstatt D (the Hallstatt phase with the most famous sites in central Europe) as the date when central European influences got stronger in Britain. But that phase starts around 650BC so it isnít linked to generic shift detected.

    If you look at the relative insularity of Britain in the Ewart Park (c.950-800BC) and the export not importing phase of Hallstatt C phases (roughly 800-650BC) then what stands out is that the big period of incoming continental influence on Britain was the Walington-Willburton phase of c.1150-950BC (Roughly) not the Hallstatt C era people tend to focus on like 800-650BC. Interestingly that phase of say 1150-950BC of continental influence also coincides with the genetic change dates that have leaked out. That period 1150-950BC was the zenith of the Atlantic network geographically when it stretched from SW Iberia to parts of Holland. After 950BC Iberia dropped out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    So we have:

    1. The linguists' consensus that Pictish was a Celtic language (not the opinions of online forum posters).
    2. We have geneticists finding that Scotland did not see an increase in EEF during the Late Bronze Age.
    3. We have Ian Armit revealing that "It is STRIKING...that many of those who moved appear to have been FEMALE". Ian Armit is sure to be a co-author with Harvard as him and David Reich have co-authored together recently and Armit's abstract is clearly referencing the large Harvard study.

    While I proposed an Iron Age movement of U152 into southern Britain over a decade ago (see my archived U152.org site) and it would be cool for U152 to be responsible for both Italic and Celtic, the data simply does not support these late Celtic scenarios.
    i also tend to think itíd be very difficult to change the language of a country around 1000-900BC. The population was really large by that period and itís very hard to see how it could have been changed in a hostile fashion without leaving a massive archaeological signature. it also needs born in mind that the vast bulk of the late bronze age population did not receive a burial that left detectable traces. Those who did were the privileged few. So we may be looking at a 50% turnover in an elite who suddenly have prioritised making friends with continental elites via marriage. interestingly the period of maximum continental influence on Britain in the late bronze age is 1150-950 before falling into a more insular phase again 950-800BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    If you look at the relative insularity of Britain in the Ewart Park (c.950-800BC) and the export not importing phase of Hallstatt C phases (roughly 800-650BC) then what stands out is that the big period of incoming continental influence on Britain was the Walington-Willburton phase of c.1150-950BC (Roughly) not the Hallstatt C era people tend to focus on like 800-650BC. Interestingly that phase of say 1150-950BC of continental influence also coincides with the genetic change dates that have leaked out. That period 1150-950BC was the zenith of the Atlantic network geographically when it stretched from SW Iberia to parts of Holland. After 950BC Iberia dropped out.
    When doing some of my own cursory research, I, too, noticed the most natural break for a continental migration into Britain comes with Willburton-Wallington. I did have a broader question though.

    How sure can we be that there is a clean separation between Urnfield and the Atlantic Bronze Age, especially in eastern France and the Low Countries? Just as with Bell Beaker, could it be that the phenomenon labeled Atlantic Bronze Age encompasses a variety of ethnolinguistic traditions intermixing that could include large migrations? What I'm driving at is: it really so easy to rule out a strong influx from the direction of Urnfield when we have seen older theories about Bell Beaker that had similar ideas about diffuse networks but missed a huge migration in the middle of all that interaction. Is something similar possible here?

    Just as the Iberian Beakers came first but the Steppe Beakers really defined the development of the culture, could the Atlantic Bronze Age encompass both Urnfield and non Urnfield traditions and thus is not necessarily a negation of an Urnfield influx originating from deeper in Central Europe at the relevant time period?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    i also tend to think it’d be very difficult to change the language of a country around 1000-900BC. The population was really large by that period and it’s very hard to see how it could have been changed in a hostile fashion without leaving a massive archaeological signature. it also needs born in mind that the vast bulk of the late bronze age population did not receive a burial that left detectable traces. Those who did were the privileged few. So we may be looking at a 50% turnover in an elite who suddenly have prioritised making friends with continental elites via marriage. interestingly the period of maximum continental influence on Britain in the late bronze age is 1150-950 before falling into a more insular phase again 950-800BC.
    From the chart jdean posted
    The EEF increase begins at 1000 BCE and peaks at around 870 BCE, and slightly decreases from ~870 BCE before plateauing at around 790 BCE.
    This is straddling your "maximum continental influence" and the "more insular phase".

    So from 1150 to 1000 BCE during the max continental influence there is no increase in EEF. Then something happens ~1000 BC that begins to increase EEF while there is still a continental influence. Could it be the new Continental arrivals started importing EEF individuals from ~1000 to ~950 BC i.e. the female arrivals. Then maybe the continentals "went native " or were cut off from their origin/homeland from 950 to 800 BC, yet the EEF imports kept coming until around 870 BC, when there is a decline in EEF. And by 790 BC things stabilize/the continental arrivals are integrated.

    An alternative explanation might be, when the continental arrived there was a period of domination from around 1150 to 1000 BC. Then another group high in EEF arrived from the Atlantic. Maybe the locals reached out to their Atlantic allies to help fight the continental arrivals. e.g. like 1400 years later, when the Britons called upon the Angles and Saxons to help fight the Picts.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Psynome View Post
    When doing some of my own cursory research, I, too, noticed the most natural break for a continental migration into Britain comes with Willburton-Wallington. I did have a broader question though.

    How sure can we be that there is a clean separation between Urnfield and the Atlantic Bronze Age, especially in eastern France and the Low Countries? Just as with Bell Beaker, could it be that the phenomenon labeled Atlantic Bronze Age encompasses a variety of ethnolinguistic traditions intermixing that could include large migrations? What I'm driving at is: it really so easy to rule out a strong influx from the direction of Urnfield when we have seen older theories about Bell Beaker that had similar ideas about diffuse networks but missed a huge migration in the middle of all that interaction. Is something similar possible here?

    Just as the Iberian Beakers came first but the Steppe Beakers really defined the development of the culture, could the Atlantic Bronze Age encompass both Urnfield and non Urnfield traditions and thus is not necessarily a negation of an Urnfield influx originating from deeper in Central Europe at the relevant time period?
    There are numerous cremation urnfields in central southern England, particularly in river catchments from Christchurch Harbour and Poole Harbour.
    I have always modelled the Flemish Urnfields as linked to the Dorset Urnfields and as part of the Atlantic complex (so L21 dominated). There was some RSFO influence into part of the Flemish Urnfields (and I have always considered RSFO U152 dominated).
    Sample Ref. https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/55715523.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    No, because:
    - you could have a similar effect if Q was preserved as an archaism due to a substrate from a para-celtic Language,
    - Q to P could be followed by a P to Q. So, this is irrelevant. The distinction between Q Celtic and P Celtic is artificial as not the result of branching.

    Also, a remind: I said several times that there was a linguistic continuum following BBs in nearly all Western Europe, from which emerged Proto Celtic, and Celtic. But other para Celtic languages existed probably. It was probably the case in most of Britain. The problem is therefore that those para Celtic are mostly indistinguable from Celtic.
    i actually donít much disagree with that. i would observe that the most famous Celtic-defining shift involved loss of P at the start of words so hence Celtic (whether Q or P) dropped the initial P from words that others like Italic retained -Pater, Pisc etc. So that establish Celticís orginal location of formation as being somewhere allergic to P. However, it has also been suggested that Etruscan (and therefore also Rhaetian) is likely the substrate behind the much later Q to P shift on the continent first recorded in Lepontic. This is one of the many reasons why i donít believe Celtic emerged in the Alpine zone - it has the wrong type of substrate. i think it arrived there from an area with a very different type of substrate. As the pre IE substrate in Celtic is largely also share with Germanic, i think itís possible a Funn l
    beaker substrate was involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psynome View Post
    When doing some of my own cursory research, I, too, noticed the most natural break for a continental migration into Britain comes with Willburton-Wallington. I did have a broader question though.

    How sure can we be that there is a clean separation between Urnfield and the Atlantic Bronze Age, especially in eastern France and the Low Countries? Just as with Bell Beaker, could it be that the phenomenon labeled Atlantic Bronze Age encompasses a variety of ethnolinguistic traditions intermixing that could include large migrations? What I'm driving at is: it really so easy to rule out a strong influx from the direction of Urnfield when we have seen older theories about Bell Beaker that had similar ideas about diffuse networks but missed a huge migration in the middle of all that interaction. Is something similar possible here?

    Just as the Iberian Beakers came first but the Steppe Beakers really defined the development of the culture, could the Atlantic Bronze Age encompass both Urnfield and non Urnfield traditions and thus is not necessarily a negation of an Urnfield influx originating from deeper in Central Europe at the relevant time period?
    i must admit it has crossed my mind too that bell beaker was once written off as a small migration at best because there was so much heterogeneity in terms of settlements, burials etc. it is not impossible that the onset of the late bronze age saw the migration of groups whose foreign origin is masked by them essentially not effecting things outside the elite sphere of controlling metals and prestige goods. The appearance of hillforts or naturally defended hilltop settlements focussed on metals and trade happens in Britain, Ireland, Iberia and Urnfield Europe in the 1200-900BC era.

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