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Thread: Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Do we know when the Angles stopped coming to England from their homeland? Only thing I could find is that their homeland was deserted in the 730s, and began to be occupied by Danes in the 800s.

    So somewhere between the 500s and 730s. Just wondering if anyone ran across something more specific.
    We can deduce this with the Boulonnais settlement. We can see 2 phases:
    - first one, with migrants who came directly from Jutland, Low Saxony... probably till mid VIth century,
    - second one, with migrants from England, probably partly due to Britons resistance, after mid VIth century until around 700.

    One of the name found in tremissis from Quentowic is "anglo". Clearly an ethnic name:
    https://fr.numista.com/catalogue/pieces194056.html

    So numbers probably started to fall around 600, and original land was more or less deserted by mid VIIth century.

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  3. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    We can deduce this with the Boulonnais settlement. We can see 2 phases:
    - first one, with migrants who came directly from Jutland, Low Saxony... probably till mid VIth century,
    - second one, with migrants from England, probably partly due to Britons resistance, after mid VIth century until around 700.

    One of the name found in tremissis from Quentowic is "anglo". Clearly an ethnic name:
    https://fr.numista.com/catalogue/pieces194056.html

    So numbers probably started to fall around 600, and original land was more or less deserted by mid VIIth century.
    I know he’s not considered a reliable source, but Bede implies that it is was abandoned soon after the initial arrivals

    From the Angles, that is, the country which is called Anglia, and which is said, from that time, to remain desert to this day, between the provinces of the Jutes and the Saxons
    “That time” was roughly 450-456 AD. Other than this and what you mentioned above of around 550 AD (mid VI century), I can’t find anything more specific.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 01-19-2022 at 04:45 AM.
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  5. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    I know he’s not considered a reliable source, but Bede implies that it is was abandoned soon after the initial arrivals


    “That time” was roughly 450-456 AD. Other than this and what you mentioned above of around 550 AD (mid VI century), I can’t find anything more specific.
    I'm not in much of a position to post this week Mitch, but my understanding is that roughly 100 years is considered about right for the large-scale movements. Later on you're more likely to see small-scale and individual migrations such as the marriage alliances I mentioned earlier in relation to archaeological sites in Kent.

    That was also the figure used by Heinrich Härke in his calculations here (Anglo-Saxon Immigration and Ethnogenesis). They're well worth a read in their own right:

    "One of the arguments against an Anglo-Saxon ‘folk migration’ has been the presumed lack of sea transport capacity. However, assuming up to 200,000 migrants and a migration period of about 100 years, the seemingly large number of migrants breaks down into no more than 2000 per year. Depending on assumptions about additional cargo, this translates into 100 to 200 boat loads of the Nydam type, the large rowing boat found in the Jutish bog deposit of Nydam and dating to around ad 400. If each boat made no more than two return trips per season, the entire migration would not have required more than 50 to 100 boats in operation at any one time in the triangle between southern Norway, the western Baltic and the mouth of the Rhine. Gebühr has carried out a more rigorous investigation of the transport question with a computer simulation programme. According to his figures, the migration of 250,000 people from Denmark to East Anglia would require no more than 38 years, using 20 boats in a continuous transport operation during a sailing season from May to August."
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  7. #164
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    The Sutton Hoo ship was used well into the seventh century, (burial around 625AD ) and is basically the same design as the Nydam vessel, but a lot larger, nearly 90ft in length, as against the Nydam vessel (dated to 325AD) at nearly 76ft. There were 37 merovingian tremisses placed in the Sutton Hoo ship burial, as well as 3 Gold blanks. Lots of these type coins have been found dating to the seventh century, in England including 60 found in Norfolk in 2014, and also many included in the Crondall Hoard,found 1828 in Hampshire.

    Thrymsas, Anglo Saxon Gold Shillings, were then minted from around 620AD in England, and were the high end monetary system untill the silver pennies (sceats) around 660 AD -760AD arrived to replace them.

    There was still movements and connections with the continent well into the seventh & eight centuries, many of the sceats found throughout England were minted on the continent. Through trade or having been brought with incomming peoples there are quite a substantial amount of these now being found. It may suggest that significant migrations could of lasted well into the mid, and late eigth century, and even continued with the viking invaders and settlements of the ninth century well into the eleventh century and beyond.
    Last edited by Paul333; 01-19-2022 at 05:25 PM.

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  9. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cartographer View Post
    I'm intrigued by the PCA in the Hines lecture, visible in the bottom left corner from around 41:00 to 44:00.

    Attachment 47996

    I don't think I've ever seen it published in a study before and I wonder if it's from the new one. Anyhow, the quality obviously isn't great but you can see that they've labelled a number of ancient samples as well as modern ones and defined a "British/Iron Age Cluster" and an "Anglo-Saxon cluster." I'm assuming that the shapes (dots vs triangles) are in relation to what period they come from, with the former being IA and the latter AS.
    Looks like only part of the English cluster is directly between Iron Age Britons and Anglo-Saxons, the intermediate red triangles and surrounding small cluster are presumably from the late Anglo-Saxon period. The average modern English are more Southern, between Insular Celts and South Dutch, not North Germans/Danes. So a significant post-1066 Norman French influence in England is growing ever more likely in my mind, and the Viking paper hinted at that.
    Last edited by Molfish; 01-28-2022 at 04:14 AM.

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  11. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molfish View Post
    Looks like only part of the English cluster is directly between Iron Age Britons and Anglo-Saxons, the intermediate red triangles and surrounding small cluster are presumably from the late Anglo-Saxon period. The average modern English are more Southern, between Insular Celts and South Dutch, not North Germans/Danes. So a significant post-1066 Norman French influence in England is growing ever more likely in my mind, and the Viking paper hinted at that.
    I think this is an interesting point. Ive seen a couple of other posters here with ancestry mostly from southeastern England who get calculator results that essentially make them somewhat Germanic shifted but also Mediterranean shifted compared to most iron age Brits and the Anglo Saxon samples.
    I think it will be interesting to see when and if this pattern emerges in the ancient DNA when theres more samples from the periods between Roman and modern, or whether its much more modern and patchy admixture.
    For example my Mum and Aunt overlap with the south Dutch, or western Germans. Majority of their ancestry is from south of the Thames (and a lot of Kent, which is consistently the stepping stone for incomers from the continent) the only continental link i can find is one French ancestor from the 1720s.
    My grandad has all his ancestry from East Anglia and Sussex, but has slightly more mediterranean admixture than northern or northwestern Brits, and northern Germans, Dutch and Danes. It seems theres likely to be some later inputs from the south that are underestimated,at least in some areas, that make us pull more towards the 'Frankish' zone, from an early medieval context anyway.
    Though plenty of Flemish, Dutch, French, Norman and Breton incomers are known about, the numbers seem quite small? Unless someone can correct me there!

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  13. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anglecynn View Post
    I think this is an interesting point. Ive seen a couple of other posters here with ancestry mostly from southeastern England who get calculator results that essentially make them somewhat Germanic shifted but also Mediterranean shifted compared to most iron age Brits and the Anglo Saxon samples.
    I think it will be interesting to see when and if this pattern emerges in the ancient DNA when theres more samples from the periods between Roman and modern, or whether its much more modern and patchy admixture.
    For example my Mum and Aunt overlap with the south Dutch, or western Germans. Majority of their ancestry is from south of the Thames (and a lot of Kent, which is consistently the stepping stone for incomers from the continent) the only continental link i can find is one French ancestor from the 1720s.
    My grandad has all his ancestry from East Anglia and Sussex, but has slightly more mediterranean admixture than northern or northwestern Brits, and northern Germans, Dutch and Danes. It seems theres likely to be some later inputs from the south that are underestimated,at least in some areas, that make us pull more towards the 'Frankish' zone, from an early medieval context anyway.
    Though plenty of Flemish, Dutch, French, Norman and Breton incomers are known about, the numbers seem quite small? Unless someone can correct me there!
    Yeah, the jury is still out a bit because we haven't really seen Sub-Roman Britons from England yet, and where they plot. The Cornish are more Southern shifted and could perhaps better represent the Brittonic ancestry in many modern English, which would make them more Saxon shifted. But after seeing that PCA I'm left with the conclusion that the cumulative Southern influence in the last 1000 years must be greater than previously thought.

    My Midlands-born mother's G25 breakdown between modern proxies:

    Target: MolfishMum_scaled
    Distance: 1.7103% / 0.01710302 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    49.4 Welsh
    37.0 Norwegian
    7.2 French_Seine-Maritime
    6.4 Danish
    Last edited by Molfish; 01-28-2022 at 02:48 PM.

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  15. #168
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    I'm convinced that North Dutch like my parents and my are most close to the original Anglo-Saxons as you can get, a kind of proxy?

    This is based on twee 'analyses' from Angles, the first one derived from C vs G:



    On top of that a Q Adm:

    right pops:
    Villabruna
    Vestonice16
    Ust_Ishim_published.DG
    Kostenki14.SG
    GoyetQ116-1_udg_published
    MA1.SG
    GanjDareh
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    A_Papuan-16.DG
    A_Han-4.DG
    Andaman.SG

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    finndad_NL
    Denmark_IA
    Ansarve_Megalithic (I wanted to have a "farmer" source. The choice of Ansarve can be disputed, but anyway, according to the results the question has no real importance ...)

    best coefficients: 1.025 -0.025
    totmean: 1.025 -0.025
    boot mean: 1.027 -0.027
    std. errors: 0.100 0.100


    fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
    00 0 11 5.192 0.921515 1.025 -0.025 infeasible
    01 1 12 5.260 0.948719 1.000 0.000
    10 1 12 113.107 1.45072e-18 0.000 1.000
    best pat: 00 0.921515 - -
    best pat: 01 0.948719 chi(nested): 0.068 p-value for nested model: 0.793938


    left pops:
    finnmum_NL
    Denmark_IA
    Ansarve_Megalithic


    best coefficients: 0.984 0.016
    totmean: 0.984 0.016
    boot mean: 0.986 0.014
    std. errors: 0.097 0.097


    fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
    00 0 11 6.040 0.870674 0.984 0.016
    01 1 12 6.066 0.912698 1.000 0.000
    10 1 12 122.121 2.33258e-20 0.000 1.000
    best pat: 00 0.870674 - -
    best pat: 01 0.912698 chi(nested): 0.026 p-value for nested model: 0.871204

    The p-values of the nested models are astronomic. According to this analysis Finn's parents are "pure" Danish from the Iron Age. Btw Denmark_IA is for the three individuals from Margaryan. Of course I used imputed genomes for Finn's parents (947035 SNPs). For the experts, I've taken the risk to keep the transitions.


    The conclusion in a publication in Paleo Actueel (2005):



    A woman in Drenthe clothes from a Woman In Zweeloo, next to Aalden, Drenthe in the fifth century in Anglo-Saxon style during the migration period:


    Especially in Drenthe with after the Anglo-Saxon no big influxes and with a close knit farmer population, relative poor compared to other parts and therefore a kind of preserved genetic profile!?

    The Anglo-Saxon were most probably kind of elite in parts of the North Dutch area so had more change of reproduction and a higher survival rate.

    With a phenomenon like "pedigree collaps" could the Anglo-Saxons have had a very large genetic footprint!



    So are indeed North Dutch like my family most close to the fresh from the boat Anglo-Saxons or is this nonsens and why?
    Last edited by Finn; 01-28-2022 at 06:34 PM.

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  17. #169
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    This weird website claims that English has a prehistoric presence in Britain:

    http://web.archive.org/web/201705232...o-english.org/

    "Linguistic situation at the time of Julius Caesar" (a map from this website):



    The author of this website and this theory is Michael Goormachtigh.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 02-19-2022 at 07:01 AM.

  18. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    This weird website claims that English has a prehistoric presence in Britain:

    http://web.archive.org/web/201705232...o-english.org/

    "Linguistic situation at the time of Julius Caesar" (a map from this website):



    The author of this website and this theory is Michael Goormachtigh.
    Sounds Dutch.....of course.....

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