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Thread: Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

  1. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Think I figured out what I was missing.
    The map on left is showing pre 400 AD CNE=Anglo Saxon ancestry origins, not British Isles ancestry origins.

    This would imply a genetic similarity between the traditional home of the Anglo Saxons and folks from Poland, Ukraine, and Czechoslovakia.

    Edit jonvikW is saying something similar in post 384.

    So map on left isn’t telling us anything about pre 400 ad immigrates to Britain.
    This touches on my own Y-line journey. My surname is of Old English origin, part of a large colonial planter family. My colonial ancestor and his father were both ship captains and were some of the driving forces behind the English colonies. In the domesday book, near where my family is said to originate near Sussex, you find a Landholder of my namesake, serving the house of Godwin. Interestingly enough, in ‘Origins of the Anglo-Saxon Race’ that came out long ago, my surname is said to be a namesake for Wendish settlers who accompanied the Anglo-Saxons to England, and behold, I sit on an ancestral branch with Tomenable.
    Last edited by Garimund; 06-26-2022 at 06:48 PM.
    AncestryDNA(Aug 2022): England & NW Europe 45%, Scotland 22%, Ireland 19%, Wales 9%, Sweden & Denmark 2%, Germanic Europe 2%, Cameron, Congo 1%

    Living DNA:
    Great Britain and Ireland 100%
    N. Ireland and SW Scotland 26.2%, SC England 17.7%, Central England 17.3%, S Wales Border 8%, East Anglia 7.6%, NW Scotland 6%, Ireland 5.8%, NW England 5%, N Wales 3.2%, Aberdeenshire 1.8%, SE England 1.3%

    G25 Iron Age
    42.4 Northern_Britannia_IA
    37.0 Gallic_LaTene_IA
    20.6 Dane_Sjaelland_Skane_IA

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  3. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Germanics in Slovakia post date Bastarnae/Jastorf in Poland by at least 200-300 years. Poprad would have to be late/post Puchov culture

  4. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straboo View Post
    Before 800bc? So when does the iron age begin in england?
    Approx 800 BC or shortly after

    Quote Originally Posted by Straboo View Post
    So your saying there was no flow at all from 800 to 200 bc across the channel? That does not sound realistic
    That's what the paper said, see page 10 of this PDF in particular:
    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...ipt_2021_3.pdf

    A big change in the Late bronze age, then relatively little after that right up to the roman conquest. All those arrivals 1200-800 BC would be included in the British IA category, and there weren't enough arrivals in the iron age to account for those French IA figures.

    THis is what they say:
    Our sampling from western France and Belgium
    is poor, and it is possible that EEF ancestry proportions there were
    similar to Britain, so we cannot rule out migration from this region in
    the IA. Nevertheless, our results are consistent with reduced migration
    from continental Europe and suggest a substantial degree of genetic
    isolation of Britain from much of continental Europe during the IA

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  6. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straboo View Post
    Finn, you make it out as if the previous late lusatian/Pomeranian culture just vanished of the face of the earth with no trace (which is total you know what)

    Any post about Jastorf-Bastarnae in the 3rd century BC Poland need to be contrasted with maps that show indicators of native, non germanic local peoples for the iron age Poland.

    The Jastorf migrants went through greater Poland, west to east, and then headed south east via the Bug river. Remaining Jastorf in central poland were swallowed up by early heavily celtic influenced Preworsk culture.
    Have a look at this Straboo:



    https://www.academia.edu/37471966/It..._300_BC_10_AD_

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  8. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by V-X View Post
    Of course, but on this chart those people would form part of the British IA and English EMA components. Plus it just doesn't add up, if we are looking at a 75% replacement, how can areas like East Anglia which we know were some of the most heavily colonised by Anglo-Saxons, then have what looks like 35 or 40% French IA surviving from the pre-Roman period. Has to be a later introduction?

    Attachment 50230
    I took those bar charts and aligned them North to South, with West/Central England on the Left and Eastern England on the Right, so that each row roughly corresponds to the same latitude.


    As one heads south, England IA generally declines to its lowest point in the Leicester, Northampton, Norfolk, Suffolk area; but does make a slight rebound in Oxford and along the Channel.

    The French IA seems to reach it's max at roughly the Leicester, Northampton, Norfolk, Suffolk area; with less French IA to the north and south.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 06-26-2022 at 05:43 PM.
    Y dna continued: Z142>Z150>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    80% Brit/Ir-ish
    35% English/14% Welsh/15% Scot/11% Ulster Scot/5% Irish
    14% German/3% Scandi-Finn/2% French & Dutch/1% India

    Be more concerned about seeking the truth than winning an argument.

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  10. #416
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    V-X. I think we'll have to wait for the paper before we can say what is going on. JonikW was very kind to give us his coverage of the material, however, in these sort of talks quite a lot of detail can be left out, particularly with reference to the nitty-gritty of it all, i.e. sample populations, analytical methods etc, and what is represented is 'their' take on the data. It may well pass muster, or their could be a number of flaws, which lead to other possible interpretations of the data. We'll have to wait, see and judge for ourselves.

    As for the Patterson Paper, I thought that 'there was no more change', was in reference to the rest of the Iron Age. It doesn't preclude post IA changes. To be fair I'd like to see a PCA of all of those IA individuals, as I suspect there was a continuous shift/turnover beyond the early IA, it's just hidden within their analysis of the 3 European components (Steppe, EEF and WHG). Of course it may be difficult to make fair comparison....given the different archaeological geographies of the different time periods
    Last edited by jadegreg; 06-26-2022 at 05:37 PM.

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  12. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straboo View Post
    Germanics in Slovakia post date Bastarnae/Jastorf in Poland by at least 200-300 years. Poprad would have to be late/post Puchov culture
    It's imo not so much about the labeling but about the Germanic origin in relationship with the migration to England....

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  14. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    I took those bar charts and aligned them North to South, with West/Central England on the Left and Eastern England on the Right, so that each row roughly corresponds to the same latitude.
    You really are a master of the digital image. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jadegreg View Post
    I think we'll have to wait for the paper before we can say what is going on
    No doubt about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    The French IA seems to reach it's max at roughly the Leicester, Northampton, Norfolk, Suffolk
    Hmmmmm
    20161224_xmm983.png

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  18. #420
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    My issue with the notion that IA France = British survival is that, based on the "ancestry decomposition" maps that JonikW posted, and as V-X has already noted, the geneticists were able to model all of the Anglo-Saxon era samples as a two-way mixture between the NW European migrants and the IA British population. This includes some grave sites in Cornwall, Sussex and what appears to be Dorset which do seem to have been largely composed of Britons who match the IA British profile. Given how many early AS grave sites were tested, in the areas where the French component is strongly evident in the present day, I just don't see where it could have been hiding. Hopefully at least some of this will be discussed in the actual paper.

    Also, now I really want to see studies exploring the effects of the Roman era, the migrations of the Franks & Alemanni, and even the Norman settlement on French people today.

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