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Thread: Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

  1. #1311
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    I'm just beginning to get into this mountain of data, so I'm not sure this post will be helpful to you. I edited a series of PCAs under PLINK2, by groups. Please note that this is fast and rough work. No filtering, no pruning, no searching for outliers, I just took the whole file and projected it onto my modern group base (1240K). Obviously no imputation. As usual, each file is a pdf. Look each time for the cluster coded "AS". I gathered all PCAs in a folder that I uploaded to my dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hxhhdpv27...8x75VxTRa?dl=0
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    GENETIC GROUPS Scotland (Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire)

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  3. #1312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creatag View Post
    I don't get why the Gelderse Vallei would get around a quarter of the yellow component, while three of the 5 circles in the Central North area get nothing and way more of the pink component while not even being in the Salian Frank area. They are in the soutwest of Drenthe and in the Kop van Overijssel, not Salland.
    And take for example Drenthe. Drenthe was not that depopulated like Westergo/ Friesland. So there was still a residu- Germani population. For example in the most Northern part there were a chunk of Chauci that planted there in Roman times. You still see in parts of Drenthe a slice pink-old Germani- component.(Besides afterwards migrations although in Drenthe this was not major it was not a pull region, too poor for that).

    Is this all the thick thumb of Finn? No it's a combination of a deep knowledge of the population history and geography of my region. And it's scientific based.

    About the Chauci in North Drenthe:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_Roman_Period
    Last edited by Finn; 08-19-2022 at 11:42 AM.

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  5. #1313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creatag View Post
    I don't get why the Gelderse Vallei would get around a quarter of the yellow component, while three of the 5 circles in the Central North area get nothing and way more of the pink component while not even being in the Salian Frank area. They are in the soutwest of Drenthe and in the Kop van Overijssel, not Salland.
    Don't challenge the historian

    Kampen and Genemuiden on the Lao 2013 map:


    Kampen and Genemuiden as part of the historical Landschap Salland


    PS my ex wife is from Kampen/Ijsselmuiden may be that is the clue: the pinks against the yellows
    Last edited by Finn; 08-19-2022 at 01:22 PM.

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  7. #1314
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Obviously no imputation.
    I have been thinking about recent papers using GLIMPSE but looking at their Github and I think one needs a datacenter to process one genome.

    https://github.com/odelaneau/GLIMPSE

  8. #1315
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    If I was English i’d have a much dimmer view of that and look at it as a kind of enslavement of the English by a French speaking Raj.
    Au contraire, the Normans actually outlawed slavery within England. The people in the lowest rungs of society probably saw little change (and improvements are even possible). Even at the top of society, the Normans took to banishing or imprisoning rivals rather than killing them outright (as the Anglo-Saxons had done). Don't get me wrong, the Conquest was clearly horrific, especially the Harrying of the North and the expulsion of the A-S elite). And the trope of the 'Norman Yoke' has some truth to it (which the English take every opportunity to bemoan). But a decade or so after the Conquest, it is likely that the average peasant was living a similar life to before the conquest. Even the changes to the state were overwhelmingly at the upper levels. Locals laws and governance remained almost entirely the same. The biggest difference for a wretched peasant would probably be having a landlord with a French name.

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  10. #1316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brittunculi View Post
    Au contraire, the Normans actually outlawed slavery within England. The people in the lowest rungs of society probably saw little change (and improvements are even possible). Even at the top of society, the Normans took to banishing or imprisoning rivals rather than killing them outright (as the Anglo-Saxons had done). Don't get me wrong, the Conquest was clearly horrific, especially the Harrying of the North and the expulsion of the A-S elite). And the trope of the 'Norman Yoke' has some truth to it (which the English take every opportunity to bemoan). But a decade or so after the Conquest, it is likely that the average peasant was living a similar life to before the conquest. Even the changes to the state were overwhelmingly at the upper levels. Locals laws and governance remained almost entirely the same. The biggest difference for a wretched peasant would probably be having a landlord with a French name.
    I think a major difference besides the foreign rule and the alienation of the upper from the common and lower classes was the introduction of strict laws, mostly based on canon law. If reading about the situation in Norman England, in comparison to most other regions, which is most striking is the break with older traditions and common laws being even stronger, in some respects, especially concerning inheritance and family, than elsewhere. Especially earlier on, when the church wasn't able to shove the same measures down the people's throat elsewhere.

    I think the best argument against the "we were suppressed" of the English would be in fact that the modern English are both culturally and genetically quite Norman. Simple put, the Anglo-Saxon world and people the Normans conquered ceased to exist, the English which came out of this being part Norman themselves. They are the product of this Anglo-Norman fusion, and not just surviving Anglo-Saxons which had to live under the Norman yoke. We could compare it with people which were in part or fully actual slaves, but their culture and ancestry being strongly influenced by this master upper class. They can't talk about "us" and "them", because the "them" is part of themselves.
    The same applies to the modern English even more, if talking about the Normans.

    I'm really curious about the exact impact of Norman associated ancestry (not just Normans themselves, but also allies, mercenaries, specialists from other Frankish areas in particular) on the English, especially the patrilinear side. Some widespread subclades are very clearly Norman, we can see that at FTDNA and YFull, I brought up some examples before (don't have them at hand though), but considering the testing density, especially in France, but also BENELUX and Germany, this is surely just the tip of the Iceberg.

    Will be also interesting for myself, because in my associated E-V13 upstream/main branches is a good number of British matches. Obviously because they test better, but for some I'm suspecting a Norman associated entry point to the Isles.
    Last edited by Riverman; 08-19-2022 at 01:20 PM.

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  12. #1317
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    Can't wait to find out more about these folks.
    Note 1: HVN008 (who is I1) and 9 are missing from the G25.
    Note 2: Remember when people used to say that all the L21 on the NW continent was from Viking's slaves? Maybe not so much.

    Target: Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Häven:HVN001 [P312>DF19>Z302>>R-Y23278*, mtDNA HV0f]
    Distance: 3.1782% / 0.03178234 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    42.6 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_IA
    30.8 Scotland_Pictish_EMA
    14.6 Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL
    9.4 NLD_LNB_EBA_Bell_Beaker_low_res
    2.6 KEN_Kakapel_900BP


    Target: Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Häven:HVN002 [I1>>CTS11775, mtDNA H2a2a1]
    Distance: 0.9898% / 0.00989792 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    51.8 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_IA
    28.2 England_MIA_lowEEF
    14.8 VK2020_ISL_Ingiridarstadir_VA
    3.2 LUX_Loschbour
    2.0 UGA_Munsa_500BP


    Target: Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Häven:HVN003 [P312>>L21>DF13>>R-Y3646, mtDNA H1af1b]
    Distance: 2.8618% / 0.02861798 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    41.0 VK2020_NOR_North_IA
    21.8 RUS_Ingria_IA
    18.8 Bell_Beaker_England_low_res
    15.0 Scotland_LIA_low_res
    3.4 ITA_Sardinia_C_o


    Target: Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Häven:HVN004 [P312>>L21>DF13>>R-Z2961, mtDNA J1c]
    Distance: 2.4155% / 0.02415472 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    39.0 NLD_MBA_LBA
    25.6 VK2020_GreenlandW_VA
    17.0 Bell_Beaker_England_low_res
    13.4 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
    5.0 KEN_Pastoral_N_o


    Target: Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Häven:HVN005 [U106>>Z159>>R-Y6451, mtDNA H2a2a1b]
    Distance: 1.7005% / 0.01700482 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    27.6 NLD_MBA_LBA
    24.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o
    24.0 NLD_LIA
    19.0 Bell_Beaker_England_mediumEEF_low_res
    5.2 SWE_Motala_HG


    Target: Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Häven:HVN006 [U106>>Z9>>R-S5627, mtDNA U2e1]
    Distance: 2.1259% / 0.02125946 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    41.2 England_IA_low_res
    24.0 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_IA
    17.2 VK2020_Faroes_VA
    10.4 Bell_Beaker_England_low_res
    7.2 RUS_Volga-Kama_N


    Target: Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Häven:HVN007 [I1>>Z2844, mtDNA H10e]
    Distance: 2.2031% / 0.02203054 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    29.0 FRA_Alsace_IA2
    22.4 England_EBA
    20.8 Scotland_IA
    14.0 FRA_Champagne_IA2_low_res
    13.8 VK2020_RUS_Pskov_VA


    Target: Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Häven:HVN010 [I1>>>I-Y6375, mtDNA H2a2a1]
    Distance: 1.1197% / 0.01119708 | R5P | ADC: 0.25x RC
    32.2 VK2020_NOR_South_IA
    28.4 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
    17.6 VK2020_Faroes_VA
    12.4 Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL
    9.4 NLD_LNB2_Bell_Beaker_low_res

    Distances and more:
     

    Distance to: Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Häven:HVN001
    0.03937375 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_IA
    0.04356093 Scotland_LIA
    0.04427940 Wales_CA_EBA
    0.04467562 VK2020_Faroes_EM
    0.04601712 Scotland_Pictish_EMA


    Distance to: Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Häven:HVN002
    0.02189118 VK2020_NOR_South_VA
    0.02206917 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_EVA
    0.02353239 VK2020_England_Oxford_VA
    0.02438511 VK2020_England_Dorset_VA
    0.02447623 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_IA


    Distance to: Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Häven:HVN003
    0.03901913 VK2020_NOR_North_IA
    0.03931410 VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA
    0.04129758 VK2020_NOR_Mid_VA
    0.04228587 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_IA
    0.04253526 VK2020_EST_Saaremaa_EVA


    Distance to: Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Häven:HVN004
    0.03350214 VK2020_NOR_South_VA
    0.03483765 NLD_MBA
    0.03515870 VK2020_DNK_Sealand_EVA
    0.03547805 VK2020_EST_Saaremaa_EVA
    0.03579900 VK2020_ISL_Hofstadir_VA


    Distance to: Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Häven:HVN005
    0.02774946 VK2020_NOR_South_VA
    0.02948375 NLD_MBA_LBA
    0.03028686 VK2020_NOR_North_VA
    0.03052064 NLD_MBA
    0.03134313 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian


    Distance to: Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Häven:HVN006
    0.02977199 NLD_MBA_LBA
    0.03014610 VK2020_NOR_South_VA
    0.03038996 NLD_MBA
    0.03052590 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
    0.03061826 England_Saxon


    Distance to: Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Häven:HVN007
    0.03366699 Wales_MIA
    0.03369483 VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA
    0.03422172 VK2020_NOR_Mid_MA
    0.03428670 VK2020_ISL_Hringsdalur_VA
    0.03446201 CZE_Bilina_BA

    Distance to: Germany_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_Häven:HVN010
    0.01810017 VK2020_NOR_South_VA
    0.01955303 NLD_MBA
    0.02038364 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
    0.02061935 VK2020_NOR_North_VA
    0.02138384 VK2020_England_Oxford_VA

    HVN001 HV0f 0.8370
    HVN002 H2a2a1 0.5000
    HVN003 H1af1b 0.8802
    HVN004 J1c 0.8717
    HVN005 H2a2a1b 0.7191
    HVN006 U2e1 0.6080
    HVN007 H10e 0.7049
    HVN008 I4a1 0.8788
    HVN009 U2e1f1 0.5402
    HVN010 H2a2a1 0.5000

    HVN001 R-Y23278*(xZ35692) Z26497 46855 2536
    HVN002 I1 CTS11775;Z2861 10036 557
    HVN003 R-Y3646 Y3646 34382 3272
    HVN004 R-Z2961 Z2961 161745 16851
    HVN005 R-Y6451 FGC17307 228325 23338
    HVN006 R-S5627 S5627 122073 15225
    HVN007 I1 Z2844;Z2751;etc. 64893 4093
    HVN008 I-Y15031 Y15296 59484 1837
    HVN009 NA 12414 95
    HVN010 I-Y6375 Y6375 65002 7249
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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  14. #1318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    I tried dividing them into clusters. In the first file I divided them into 22 clusters, in the second into 55.

    https://pastebin.com/raw/ZbT6mGqt
    https://pastebin.com/raw/UaKVKv4u
    Ajeje can you give some background about the 55 clusters especially cluster 1 and cluster 2 (from the 55 cluster). I threw them in a G25 PCA very big overlap, cluster bit more NE wards but that's all. what marks their difference?

    Because as I can see based on the Dutch member samples we that the member with a direct Anglo-Saxon ancestry (North Dutch) are for a big part clustered beneath 2. And the ones who have more Frankish c.q. old Germani ancestry (Central Dutch) have more cluster 1.

    Interesting are the one on the twilight zone or the cross overs. Elske is Frisian so we can suspect more direct Anglo-Saxon ancestry, but see gets more old Frisii like, Waldpyk and I concludes that already before the Saxon paper that this was the case, this is confrimation.

    Kae is also interesting in this respect, he has a mixed ancestry, but if I'm well he has also a chunk North German ancestry (doesn't he Kellebel?), this also comes out of the Ajeje model!

    Last edited by Finn; 08-19-2022 at 03:38 PM.

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  16. #1319
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    With same more member especially the Scandics- in lesser extent also the Isles people- share the 'preference' for cluster 2....

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  18. #1320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I think a major difference besides the foreign rule and the alienation of the upper from the common and lower classes was the introduction of strict laws, mostly based on canon law. If reading about the situation in Norman England, in comparison to most other regions, which is most striking is the break with older traditions and common laws being even stronger, in some respects, especially concerning inheritance and family, than elsewhere. Especially earlier on, when the church wasn't able to shove the same measures down the people's throat elsewhere.

    I think the best argument against the "we were suppressed" of the English would be in fact that the modern English are both culturally and genetically quite Norman. Simple put, the Anglo-Saxon world and people the Normans conquered ceased to exist, the English which came out of this being part Norman themselves. They are the product of this Anglo-Norman fusion, and not just surviving Anglo-Saxons which had to live under the Norman yoke. We could compare it with people which were in part or fully actual slaves, but their culture and ancestry being strongly influenced by this master upper class. They can't talk about "us" and "them", because the "them" is part of themselves.
    The same applies to the modern English even more, if talking about the Normans.

    I'm really curious about the exact impact of Norman associated ancestry (not just Normans themselves, but also allies, mercenaries, specialists from other Frankish areas in particular) on the English, especially the patrilinear side. Some widespread subclades are very clearly Norman, we can see that at FTDNA and YFull, I brought up some examples before (don't have them at hand though), but considering the testing density, especially in France, but also BENELUX and Germany, this is surely just the tip of the Iceberg.

    Will be also interesting for myself, because in my associated E-V13 upstream/main branches is a good number of British matches. Obviously because they test better, but for some I'm suspecting a Norman associated entry point to the Isles.
    Just a question to you and everyone here, why this persistent use of Norman instead of French? From my understanding they were not any different than any of the other French duchies, not culturally nor genetically and not to mention that a lot(a majority?) of these new ruling class settles were not even from Normandy but from other parts of France. It seems like to me as an outsider that a lot of people here try to make it as if the Normans at that time were anything but French for whatever reason(I can guess why but let's leave it there...).

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