Page 219 of 346 FirstFirst ... 119169209217218219220221229269319 ... LastLast
Results 2,181 to 2,190 of 3453

Thread: Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

  1. #2181
    Registered Users
    Posts
    225
    Sex
    Location
    Los Angeles, California; Grand River, Ontario
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152 > L2 > L20
    mtDNA (M)
    K1b2b
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-Z284 > Y64062
    mtDNA (P)
    K2b1a1a

    Canada United States of America California Republic United Kingdom Germany South Africa
    Quote Originally Posted by New_Englander View Post
    Interesting map, do you think coastal Norway played a role in the Anglo-Saxon migrations? I think some of the samples from the paper had quite Scandinavian profiles.
    Based on the archaeology, genetics, and limited historical sources, it is most likely that there was a contribution via the Vik and Oslofjord. Of course the "Princely burials" such as that of Raedwald and the grave furnishings (the helmet alone) certainly points to a clear Swedish (which at that time likely meant Scandia or Vendel) influence. Shame that the soil in East Anglia's "Valley of the Kings" is so bloody acidic ("Raedwald" and the ship for that matter had left at best a shadow).

    The data can be found in a series of 3 lengthy papers I wrote some years ago exploring each of the 3 hypotheses which I was considering for how U152 came to England. If you can ignore my speculations based on limited genetic data, the historic (e.g., Strabo, Bede) and archaeological information sheds some light on the migrations to England from Continental Celtic to Viking times - plus comparable data pertaining to Continental Europe. Perhaps there might be a few diamonds in the rough - such as the few hundred years in what is today Denmark from the late Iron Age to the abandonment of the Angli settlements beginning in the early 6th Century. Here is the one pertaining to the Angles (which has links to the Belgae and Viking hypotheses). With some hesitation (please ignore the U152 guesswork), here it is: https://www.davidkfaux.org/files/Ang...and_R_U152.pdf.
    Last edited by falconson1; 09-25-2022 at 02:25 AM.
    Big Y: L20 > BY61198. One modern match country of origin is not recorded. An ancient DNA match is sample I14538 from a 5th century Jutish Anglo-Saxon burial ground in Rookery Hill, Bishopstone, Sussex, England.
    Avatar: Great great grandfather Sgt. Charles Faux, wife Mary Ann (Williams) Faux born in South Africa, and great grandfather Robert Faux. Painting entitled "Autumn" by Frederick Sandys (1860) hanging in the art gallery at Norwich Castle Museum. I have his three war medals.

  2. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to falconson1 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (09-25-2022),  Anglecynn (09-25-2022),  Bygdedweller (09-25-2022),  Cascio (09-25-2022),  Manofthehour (09-25-2022),  New_Englander (09-25-2022),  Orentil (09-25-2022),  Tigertim (09-25-2022),  W‚ldpykjong (09-25-2022)

  3. #2182
    Registered Users
    Posts
    96
    Sex
    Location
    New England
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    American
    aDNA Match (1st)
    DNK Langeland VA:VK368 AD 950
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    FRA GrandEst IA2:I20817 BC 250
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    MDM007 Midlum Friesland
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-U106-Z18
    mtDNA (M)
    T2f4
    Y-DNA (M)
    R-L21-A541

    England Ireland Acadia Canada Quebec Germany Scotland
    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    Based on the archaeology, genetics, and limited historical sources, it is most likely that there was a contribution via the Vik and Oslofjord. Of course the "Princely burials" such as that of Raedwald and the grave furnishings (the helmet alone) certainly points to a clear Swedish (which at that time likely meant Scandia or Vendel) influence. Shame that the soil in East Anglia's "Valley of the Kings" is so bloody acidic ("Raedwald" and the ship for that matter had left at best a shadow).

    The data can be found in a series of 3 lengthy papers I wrote some years ago exploring each of the 3 hypotheses which I was considering for how U152 came to England. If you can ignore my speculations based on limited genetic data, the historic (e.g., Strabo, Bede) and archaeological information sheds some light on the migrations to England from Continental Celtic to Viking times - plus comparable data pertaining to Continental Europe. Perhaps there might be a few diamonds in the rough - such as the few hundred years in what is today Denmark from early Iron Age to the abandonment of the Angli settlements beginning in the early 6th Century. Here is the one pertaining to the Angles (which has links to the Belgae and Viking hypotheses). With some hesitation (please ignore the U152 guesswork), here it is: https://www.davidkfaux.org/files/Ang...and_R_U152.pdf.
    Thank you for sharing, very interesting stuff in here. The more one learns the more complex everything seems.

  4. #2183
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    8,017
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Friso-Saxon
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1bU106/ DF96

    Netherlands
    I have asked Ph2ter to make a umap in G vs C format, with the Saxon samples and that of the members here, go and find yourself if you have G vs C coordinates of course!

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/13VQ...ew?usp=sharing


    Last edited by Finn; 09-25-2022 at 10:05 AM.

  5. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (09-25-2022),  Anglecynn (09-25-2022),  Aroon1916 (09-28-2022),  David Mc (09-25-2022),  Helgenes50 (09-25-2022),  jadegreg (09-26-2022),  Jessie (09-25-2022),  JMcB (09-25-2022),  MitchellSince1893 (09-25-2022),  Net Down G5L (09-26-2022),  New_Englander (09-25-2022),  Orentil (09-25-2022),  W‚ldpykjong (09-25-2022)

  6. #2184
    Registered Users
    Posts
    8,549
    Sex
    Location
    Normandy
    Ethnicity
    northwesterner
    aDNA Match (1st)
    VK245 Sandoy Faroe islands early medieval
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    I21275 England Middle Iron Age
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    I19874 England Middle Iron Age
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-BY3604-Z275
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a1
    Y-DNA (M)
    I-M253
    mtDNA (P)
    K1c1c

    Normandie Orkney Netherlands Friesland East Frisia Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    Based on the archaeology, genetics, and limited historical sources, it is most likely that there was a contribution via the Vik and Oslofjord. Of course the "Princely burials" such as that of Raedwald and the grave furnishings (the helmet alone) certainly points to a clear Swedish (which at that time likely meant Scandia or Vendel) influence. Shame that the soil in East Anglia's "Valley of the Kings" is so bloody acidic ("Raedwald" and the ship for that matter had left at best a shadow).

    The data can be found in a series of 3 lengthy papers I wrote some years ago exploring each of the 3 hypotheses which I was considering for how U152 came to England. If you can ignore my speculations based on limited genetic data, the historic (e.g., Strabo, Bede) and archaeological information sheds some light on the migrations to England from Continental Celtic to Viking times - plus comparable data pertaining to Continental Europe. Perhaps there might be a few diamonds in the rough - such as the few hundred years in what is today Denmark from the late Iron Age to the abandonment of the Angli settlements beginning in the early 6th Century. Here is the one pertaining to the Angles (which has links to the Belgae and Viking hypotheses). With some hesitation (please ignore the U152 guesswork), here it is: https://www.davidkfaux.org/files/Ang...and_R_U152.pdf.
    I prefer to save a place for your "U152 guesswork". I am urged to do so by the distribution of my own subclade BY3604 (Denmark, Southern Sweden, British Isles and Normandy), even if I do not believe I have encountered among these new data an element to reinforce the hypothesis of an Anglo-Saxon origin of this subclade. About Scandinavia, I take the opportunity to warn against a detail of this study, which casts a shadow on its seriousness. Everyone knows, after all this time, that when we analyze genomes from the angle of their allele distributions, it is illusory to pretend to discriminate between two groups that share a large part of their genotypes. This phenomenon affects all the tools concerned, be it ADMIXTURE (this is the "French&German" syndrome of 23andMe, on which Eric Durand once spoke at length in his "White Paper"), formal statistics, in particular F4, or qpAdm. In all cases, the standard errors reach heights which make the use of the results illusory. This is however what the authors of this study do when they calculate a series of F4 with the "Norwegian" and "Swedish" sources (without telling us precisely, unless I missed this precision, which genomes are used ), table 6.2 if I remember correctly. By the way, they set the significance threshold of their stats to |Z|>2, whereas tradition sets it rather to |Z|>3. Obviously, they find nothing, simply because there was nothing to find. So, to tell it short and brutal, this series of F4 stats, like the analysis under ADMIXTURE which uses the "admixtures" "Norwegian" and "Swedish", are simply ... a joke. Why the renowned professionals who co-author this publication let this bullshit pass is beyond my comprehension.
    More generally, I admit my bitterness that to deal with such a delicate subject the authors did not consider it useful to use haplotypes. For the rest, I'll wait for the publication of genotypes by the authors.
    MyHeritage
    North and West European 55.8%
    English 28.5%
    Baltic 11.5%
    Finnish 4.2%
    GENETIC GROUPS Scotland (Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire)

  7. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to anglesqueville For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (09-25-2022),  Bygdedweller (09-25-2022),  DFSTFD (09-25-2022),  falconson1 (09-25-2022),  JMcB (09-25-2022),  jstephan (09-25-2022),  Orentil (09-25-2022),  W‚ldpykjong (09-25-2022)

  8. #2185
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    8,017
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Friso-Saxon
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1bU106/ DF96

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by falconson1 View Post
    Seems as if an archaeological assessment of the studies comparing Saxon (e.g., Sussex, Wessex, Essex) burial sites and Angle (e.g., East Anglia, Lincolnshire, Northumbria) burial sites in England should be carefully compared and contrasted to the new ancient DNA studies from these sites. Long ago I learned that pots and broaches are the best artifacts to differentiate between the two cultures. Here is a clip from an article I wrote many years ago but still, hopefully, relevant:

    Brooches are perhaps the most singularly significant signal of ethnic identity in those times. Circa 500 AD the women of
    the Angles were wearing square headed broaches rarely seen in other groups. These devices,
    commonly used as clothing fasteners, provide a valuable indication of date and origin. The
    shape and type of decoration varied between tribal groups. Even slight differences can be
    significant in the search for tribal identifiers, and can often be tied very specifically to a time
    and place. Round and equal arm brooches were common among Saxons, while the Angles
    and Jutes preferred cruciform brooches. In addition, wrist clasps were common among the
    Angles (Bakken, 1994).

    Attachment 51367

    Cruciform broach as a marker of Angles and Jutland on left and Saxon circular broach on right

    Myres (1989) provides a very detailed analysis of the links between England and the
    Continent via examining jewelry and pottery largely from cemeteries in both locations."
    I guess that that Babette Ludowici Die Sachsen (2022), gives a clear picture, she described that out of foederati context, especially the Weser-Elbe triangle developed to a 'warrior community' for a few generation still with much Roman battle gear, later on with a more own style, like you mention.



    If you want to pinpoint a 'Saxon' heartland (men with the big knives) then it's there. (Although they imported after migration time the name from England).

    By the way Ludowici stresses that- seen the name giving of places- people from South Dutch, Belgium and Northern France played a major role too. That were the strongholds of the Franks of course (with a lower CNE factor).
    Last edited by Finn; 09-25-2022 at 08:46 AM.

  9. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (09-25-2022),  Orentil (09-25-2022),  W‚ldpykjong (09-25-2022)

  10. #2186
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    8,017
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Friso-Saxon
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1bU106/ DF96

    Netherlands
    And from this Weser-Elbe triangle they spread not only to coastal Friesland/ Groningen but also more inland places like deep in Drenthe, that was connected trough waterways with the coastal area/ North Sea.

    Bos et al Paleo Aktueel (2006).

    The early medieval cemetery of Aalden (Drenthe). The northern Netherlands in the Migration Period. The cemetery of Aalden in the province of Drenthe (mainly 5th and 6th centuries AD) was excavated over 50 years ago, but never analysed, let alone published. Work on this is now in progress. It is tentatively suggested that the population concerned was a warrior community, closely connected to the immigrants in the terpen area in the north of the Netherlands. It now seems that the sandy interior of Drenthe was linked to the maritime landscape during the Migration Period.
    'CNE in person'



    https://ugp.rug.nl/Paleo-aktueel/article/view/36377
    Last edited by Finn; 09-25-2022 at 08:14 AM.

  11. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (09-25-2022),  Orentil (09-25-2022),  W‚ldpykjong (09-25-2022)

  12. #2187
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,096
    Ethnicity
    Venetharum natio populosa
    Nationality
    Polish
    aDNA Match (1st)
    SWE_Gotland_VA:VK474
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg:KRA009
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    DNK_Jutland_VA:VK340
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-L1029>YP263>Y2912*
    mtDNA (M)
    H141,U5a1b1j(W)

    Poland Poland Pomerania
    The end of Roman Britain: families, ancestors and DNA - https://podcasts.apple.com/kh/podcas...=1000580308095

  13. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Waldemar For This Useful Post:

     Anglecynn (09-25-2022),  Finn (09-25-2022),  Jessie (09-25-2022),  JMcB (09-25-2022),  MitchellSince1893 (09-25-2022),  Orentil (09-25-2022),  Tigertim (09-25-2022),  W‚ldpykjong (09-25-2022)

  14. #2188
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    299
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Norwegian

    Norway
    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    I prefer to save a place for your "U152 guesswork". I am urged to do so by the distribution of my own subclade BY3604 (Denmark, Southern Sweden, British Isles and Normandy), even if I do not believe I have encountered among these new data an element to reinforce the hypothesis of an Anglo-Saxon origin of this subclade. About Scandinavia, I take the opportunity to warn against a detail of this study, which casts a shadow on its seriousness. Everyone knows, after all this time, that when we analyze genomes from the angle of their allele distributions, it is illusory to pretend to discriminate between two groups that share a large part of their genotypes. This phenomenon affects all the tools concerned, be it ADMIXTURE (this is the "French&German" syndrome of 23andMe, on which Eric Durand once spoke at length in his "White Paper"), formal statistics, in particular F4, or qpAdm. In all cases, the standard errors reach heights which make the use of the results illusory. This is however what the authors of this study do when they calculate a series of F4 with the "Norwegian" and "Swedish" sources (without telling us precisely, unless I missed this precision, which genomes are used ), table 6.2 if I remember correctly. By the way, they set the significance threshold of their stats to |Z|>2, whereas tradition sets it rather to |Z|>3. Obviously, they find nothing, simply because there was nothing to find. So, to tell it short and brutal, this series of F4 stats, like the analysis under ADMIXTURE which uses the "admixtures" "Norwegian" and "Swedish", are simply ... a joke. Why the renowned professionals who co-author this publication let this bullshit pass is beyond my comprehension.
    More generally, I admit my bitterness that to deal with such a delicate subject the authors did not consider it useful to use haplotypes. For the rest, I'll wait for the publication of genotypes by the authors.
    Are you aware of any tendency for ADMIXTURE to produce rather extreme, exaggerated results in the direction of one particular source against all others? In their table S4.3 I see a lot of strikingly uniform results. I seem to remember seeing this discussed here or on Eurogenes at some point. I agree the technical aspects of this paper was a bit of a letdown and not quite as up to date with recent innovations in the field as I'd have imagined, although I understand that it's a matter of convenience to some degree when handling such a large number of genomes.
    Regarding the f4-stats, you probably saw already that it's based on present day-individuals, so very likely the same cohort of modern Swedes and Norwegians which was used to generate the NOR-component (n=1910). Where those samples are taken from exactly I do not know.
    Last edited by Bygdedweller; 09-25-2022 at 12:51 PM.

  15. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Bygdedweller For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (09-25-2022),  anglesqueville (09-25-2022),  JMcB (09-25-2022),  W‚ldpykjong (09-25-2022)

  16. #2189
    Registered Users
    Posts
    102
    Sex
    Location
    Germany
    Nationality
    German
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b U106 L48

    Another thought on the Franks in Southern England. In the battle on the Catalaunian fields in 451 there were Franks fighting on both sides. Is it possible that parts of the loosing side emmigated to England to escape the revenge of the winning side? Could these be e.g. the Broctuari/Bructeri of Bede?

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Orentil For This Useful Post:

     Cascio (09-25-2022)

  18. #2190
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,451
    Sex
    Location
    UK
    Ethnicity
    NW Tuscan/Italian
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+Z36+A7967
    mtDNA (M)
    U6a7a1c1

    Scotland Italy Tuscany
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    And from this Weser-Elbe triangle they spread not only to coastal Friesland/ Groningen but also more inland places like deep in Drenthe, that was connected trough waterways with the coastal area/ North Sea.

    Bos et al Paleo Aktueel (2006).



    'CNE in person'



    https://ugp.rug.nl/Paleo-aktueel/article/view/36377
    She does not look especially "Germanic".

Page 219 of 346 FirstFirst ... 119169209217218219220221229269319 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 149
    Last Post: 07-02-2022, 05:05 PM
  2. Anglo Saxon Haplogroups and Types
    By BillMC in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 09-18-2019, 05:23 PM
  3. Anglo-Saxon Tomb
    By spruithean in forum History (Medieval)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-10-2019, 02:42 AM
  4. Anglo Saxon DNA Study.
    By JohnHowellsTyrfro in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 76
    Last Post: 08-04-2018, 09:21 AM
  5. I1 from Anglo-Saxon
    By Jean M in forum I1-M253
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-19-2016, 08:52 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •