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Thread: Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

  1. #841
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Needless to say, "pure" in this context is nothing more than a way of saying that the nested 100% DK_IA model comes with a very large p-value. Such a result is conditioned by the analysis tool used, here a tool based on allelic statistics, and not a tool based on shared IBD statistics. It is also not useless when one of the little masters from Eurogenes describes us (me and a few others, but I take it for myself first) as "amateur Nordicists". That a "Nordicist" use the adjective "pure" to interpret an analysis of ethnicity, one can see what sort of suspicion this might arouse.
    Point taken point clear Angles! It was from my side not intended as an offense or something like that.

    I must honestly say that I'm wel aware of working with genetics with a Germanic background. Doesn't mean that I'm going to be hypercorrect or something like that. But I'm well aware of the misuse of genetics, phenotypes etc in the past with regard to a Germanic background. It does mean a sincere responsibility.

    A Nordicist for me is connected with some kind of superiority, that's in my own view fare away from my own mindset.

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  3. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straboo View Post
    Yes. It will be congruent with some crucial upcoming Polish DNA papers about wether there was a slavic presence ancient Poland.
    The main stage of the project "Dynasty and society of the Piast state in the light of integrated historical, anthropological and genomic research" has been completed.

    At the end of 2021, the consortium formed by the Institute of Bioorganic Chemistry of the Polish Academy of Sciences and the Faculty of History and the Faculty of Biology of the University of Adam Mickiewicz in Poznań has completed the implementation of the first Polish archaeogenomics project. It was financed by the National Science Center, and its main goal was to learn about the genetic history of the population that made up the Piast state.

    - This means that the stage of collecting various historical, archaeological, anthropological and genomic data has already been completed - informs the project manager, Prof. Marek Figlerowicz. Some of the results obtained have already been published in 18 articles that have appeared in both national and international scientific journals. If you are interested, we encourage you to read them. Papers presenting the remaining results have already been sent for printing or are under preparation.

    The project was the first attempt to use modern biological approaches to create a comprehensive description of the genetic structure of the population inhabiting the area of ​​modern Poland in the first millennium of our era and to confront the obtained information with the existing knowledge about social, economic and political processes leading to the formation of Polish statehood. The aim of the project was to verify previous hypotheses regarding the origin of the Piast state community, its elites and the ruling dynasty. In addition, we wanted to state: (i) whether the ancestors of the Slavs inhabited the area between the Oder and the Vistula before the period of great migrations of peoples, or they came to these areas later, and (ii) whether the area of ​​modern Poland was inhabited by isolated or open populations, mixing with each other and with neighboring populations.

    The planned multidisciplinary, interdisciplinary research was carried out using both classical methods used in historical sciences, in archeology and anthropology, as well as the latest technologies used in biological sciences, including next-generation sequencing (NGS). The main object of research were bone remains collected from 29 cemeteries in Poland and from 10 Piast necropolises. In total, we collected 1,125 bone fragments from over 700 burials. Each of them was described in detail in terms of age, structure and equipment, the nature of which indicated the social status of the deceased. DNA was isolated from all bone samples and subjected to initial analysis by NGS. 710 samples containing human DNA in quantities sufficient for deep sequencing were qualified for further research. Then, taking into account the age of the bones, the DNA samples were divided into two groups: R representing the Roman period, 1st-4th century CE. (145) and WS representing the early medieval period, 10th-12th centuries AD (565). In addition, the WS group was divided into three, taking into account the probable social status of people: P (Piasts, 71 samples), E (elite, 100 samples) and NE (non-elite, 394 samples). All DNA samples were deeply sequenced. For each of them, we tried to determine the genetic gender and as many genetic markers as possible, such as the mitochondrial haplogroup, the Y chromosome haplogroup (for men) or single nucleotide polymorphism. Based on the comparative analysis of markers, we examined the genetic structure of individual populations and their relationships with other populations, both modern and previously living throughout Europe. In addition, we determined the presumptive appearance of selected individuals and their predisposition to certain diseases. We also identified a number of bacteria, including pathogenic ones, accompanying individuals living in Poland one thousand and two thousand years ago. The information obtained from genomic research was confronted with the results of both previous and project-based historical, archaeological and anthropological research.

    We have shown that, contrary to earlier opinions, the populations living two thousand years ago in contemporary Poland were not isolated and closed, but open. The genetic variation observed within them was similar to that present in European societies. The population that made up these populations belonged to two main cultures, the older local (Przeworsk) and the newly emerging Wielbark. In the case of the former, genomic studies are extremely difficult due to the common practice of cremating a corpse. In the case of the second one, we found that the first stage of its spread in Poland was related to the migration of mainly men genetically similar to the then inhabitants of the Jutland Peninsula. The obtained results confirm the hypothesis that the expansion of the Wielbark culture was related to the Goths' journeys. On the basis of genome-wide analyzes, we characterized the genetic structure of the population related to the Wielbark culture. As its representatives mixed with the local population, we also indirectly obtained information on the genetic structure of the population belonging to the Przeworsk culture. Then we determined the genetic structure of the population inhabiting the territory of modern Poland during the formation of the Piast state. We found it to have most of the characteristics of modern Western Slavs. Additionally, within the elite, we observed the presence of components typical of Western Europe. Comparing the DNA of individuals from the R and WS groups allowed to verify the earlier hypotheses about the origin of the Slavs. The thesis describing this issue has already been sent for printing.

    In the first stage of research on the origin of the Piasts, we verified our knowledge of over 350 Piast burials described in the literature. It turned out that most of them no longer rest or are mixed with others. We identified 16 males which we can say with certainty are representatives of the Piast dynasty. For each of them, we determined the Y chromosome haplogroup and a number of other genetic markers. On this basis, we established their genetic relationships with the local and neighboring populations. In the case of one of the Piasts, it was also possible to reconstruct the appearance of the face on the basis of the preserved skull. Detailed research results will be published soon.

    https://portal.ichb.pl/zasadniczy-et...al-zakonczony/

    ‐-----------------

    Here are some details regarding those Masłomęcz males who were studied by the researchers from Warsaw and Lublin (ie. the team headed by the geneticist Piotr Węgleński from Warsaw and the archaeologist Andrzej Kokowski from Lublin).

    Among the 43 individuals from five different cemeteries (dated to 2nd-4th cent. AD, mostly to the mid 3rd cent. AD), there were 18 males (42%), with most of them (13 or 72%) assigned to haplogroup I1a.

    Most of them (9 individuals) were from branch Z63 (all from clade Y2245) and the remaining four were from branch Z58>Z59 (2 individuals) and from branch Y2592 (2 individuals, both from clade L22>FGC41265).

    As for the nine Z63>>Y2245 males, six of them were from subclade Y3968 (including four Y3979 and one L1242) and the three remaining individuals were from subclade L1237>Y6634. I was told that there were no close relatives among those I1a males.

    Here are all "terminal" subclades that could have been assigned to those 13 Masłomęcz Goths from haplogroup I1a:

    I-Y6634 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y6634/
    I-Y6634
    I-BY3386 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-BY3386/
    I-Y3968 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3968/
    I-L1242 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L1242/
    I-Y3979 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3979/
    I-Y3979
    I-Y7626 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y7626/
    I-Y7626
    I-Z2041 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z2041/
    I-Y46812 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y46812/
    I-CTS11603 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS11603/
    I-S9318 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S9318/

    Additionally, there were also four R1a males and one individual from haplogroup J2b.

    As for the males from haplogroup R1a, one of them was a member of the Scandinavian branch R-Z284, although I don't know his exact downstream subclade. This increases the percentage of all presumably Scandinavian/Germanic lineages in Masłomęcz to about 78%.

    The three remaining R1a males were all from branch Z280, with two of them assigned to the "Balto-Slavic" clade CTS1211 (see below), while the third one was classified as R-YP6213 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP6213/), although I suspect that this classification was based on the YFull tree alone, and thus he could have been positive only for some SNPs high upstream of YP6213. According to FTDNA, subclade YP6213 is a relatively young subclade (found in England only) that is a part of a much older clade FT6375 (Z280>FT6375>YP6228>FT211807>YP6233>YP6213). Since both YP6213 and its (grand)parental clade FT6375 are very rare today and don't show any specific association with the Balto-Slavs or Slavs, it seems that they weren't originally associated with the expanding Proto-Slavs.

    One of the two Z280>CTS1211 males was classified as R-YP4258 (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-YP4258/) (Z280>CTS1211>YP1034>YP4258). This subclade seems to be most common among people originating from the Baltic countries, and this is consistent with the fact that the R-YP4258 "Goth" was found in a grave from Grůdek that showed some unusual features indicating Baltic origin.

    The other Z280>CTS1211 male was assigned to R-YP340 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP340/) (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340), a clade showing strong association with the modern Slavs (ie. being relatively frequent among West, East and South Slavs). Unfortunately, I don't know whether this individual was negative for all three major subclades under YP340 (ie. YP371, P278 and FGC2555). It would be interesting to know his autosomal results and the exact archaeological context.

    Finally, the only case of J2b was classified as J-Z38241 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38241/). His autosomal results were clearly different (when compared to the remaining Masłomęcz males) and suggested South European (Balkan?) ancestry. Importantly, he was found in one of the earliest graves (dated to about 180 AD), so the authors suspect that he was associated with the original local population, assimilated by the incoming Goths.
    Last edited by Waldemar; 08-11-2022 at 05:13 PM.

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  5. #843
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Point taken point clear Angles! It was from my side not intended as an offense or something like that.

    I must honestly say that I'm wel aware of working with genetics with a Germanic background. Doesn't mean that I'm going to be hypercorrect or something like that. But I'm well aware of the misuse of genetics, phenotypes etc in the past with regard to a Germanic background. It does mean a sincere responsibility.

    A Nordicist for me is connected with some kind of superiority, that's in my own view fare away from my own mindset.
    I took it all the less for aggression on your part that I actually used the adjective "pure", as a shortcut in the sense that I indicated. In fact, I can't even imagine you making that kind of innuendo. But I can't say the same for the guy from Eurogenes. As he obviously reads AG (or even writes here, under another nickname), despite the fact that he was delighted a few weeks ago at our disappearance, things are clear in case he wants to slip from "Nordicist" to ... worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    The main stage of the project "Dynasty and society of the Piast state in the light of integrated historical, anthropological and genomic research" has been completed.

    At the end of 2021, the consortium formed by the Institute of Bioorganic Chemistry of the Polish Academy of Sciences and the Faculty of History and the Faculty of Biology of the University of Adam Mickiewicz in Poznań has completed the implementation of the first Polish archaeogenomics project. It was financed by the National Science Center, and its main goal was to learn about the genetic history of the population that made up the Piast state.

    - This means that the stage of collecting various historical, archaeological, anthropological and genomic data has already been completed - informs the project manager, Prof. Marek Figlerowicz. Some of the results obtained have already been published in 18 articles that have appeared in both national and international scientific journals. If you are interested, we encourage you to read them. Papers presenting the remaining results have already been sent for printing or are under preparation.

    The project was the first attempt to use modern biological approaches to create a comprehensive description of the genetic structure of the population inhabiting the area of ​​modern Poland in the first millennium of our era and to confront the obtained information with the existing knowledge about social, economic and political processes leading to the formation of Polish statehood. The aim of the project was to verify previous hypotheses regarding the origin of the Piast state community, its elites and the ruling dynasty. In addition, we wanted to state: (i) whether the ancestors of the Slavs inhabited the area between the Oder and the Vistula before the period of great migrations of peoples, or they came to these areas later, and (ii) whether the area of ​​modern Poland was inhabited by isolated or open populations, mixing with each other and with neighboring populations.

    The planned multidisciplinary, interdisciplinary research was carried out using both classical methods used in historical sciences, in archeology and anthropology, as well as the latest technologies used in biological sciences, including next-generation sequencing (NGS). The main object of research were bone remains collected from 29 cemeteries in Poland and from 10 Piast necropolises. In total, we collected 1,125 bone fragments from over 700 burials. Each of them was described in detail in terms of age, structure and equipment, the nature of which indicated the social status of the deceased. DNA was isolated from all bone samples and subjected to initial analysis by NGS. 710 samples containing human DNA in quantities sufficient for deep sequencing were qualified for further research. Then, taking into account the age of the bones, the DNA samples were divided into two groups: R representing the Roman period, 1st-4th century CE. (145) and WS representing the early medieval period, 10th-12th centuries AD (565). In addition, the WS group was divided into three, taking into account the probable social status of people: P (Piasts, 71 samples), E (elite, 100 samples) and NE (non-elite, 394 samples). All DNA samples were deeply sequenced. For each of them, we tried to determine the genetic gender and as many genetic markers as possible, such as the mitochondrial haplogroup, the Y chromosome haplogroup (for men) or single nucleotide polymorphism. Based on the comparative analysis of markers, we examined the genetic structure of individual populations and their relationships with other populations, both modern and previously living throughout Europe. In addition, we determined the presumptive appearance of selected individuals and their predisposition to certain diseases. We also identified a number of bacteria, including pathogenic ones, accompanying individuals living in Poland one thousand and two thousand years ago. The information obtained from genomic research was confronted with the results of both previous and project-based historical, archaeological and anthropological research.

    We have shown that, contrary to earlier opinions, the populations living two thousand years ago in contemporary Poland were not isolated and closed, but open. The genetic variation observed within them was similar to that present in European societies. The population that made up these populations belonged to two main cultures, the older local (Przeworsk) and the newly emerging Wielbark. In the case of the former, genomic studies are extremely difficult due to the common practice of cremating a corpse. In the case of the second one, we found that the first stage of its spread in Poland was related to the migration of mainly men genetically similar to the then inhabitants of the Jutland Peninsula. The obtained results confirm the hypothesis that the expansion of the Wielbark culture was related to the Goths' journeys. On the basis of genome-wide analyzes, we characterized the genetic structure of the population related to the Wielbark culture. As its representatives mixed with the local population, we also indirectly obtained information on the genetic structure of the population belonging to the Przeworsk culture. Then we determined the genetic structure of the population inhabiting the territory of modern Poland during the formation of the Piast state. We found it to have most of the characteristics of modern Western Slavs. Additionally, within the elite, we observed the presence of components typical of Western Europe. Comparing the DNA of individuals from the R and WS groups allowed to verify the earlier hypotheses about the origin of the Slavs. The thesis describing this issue has already been sent for printing.

    In the first stage of research on the origin of the Piasts, we verified our knowledge of over 350 Piast burials described in the literature. It turned out that most of them no longer rest or are mixed with others. We identified 16 males which we can say with certainty are representatives of the Piast dynasty. For each of them, we determined the Y chromosome haplogroup and a number of other genetic markers. On this basis, we established their genetic relationships with the local and neighboring populations. In the case of one of the Piasts, it was also possible to reconstruct the appearance of the face on the basis of the preserved skull. Detailed research results will be published soon.

    https://portal.ichb.pl/zasadniczy-et...al-zakonczony/

    ‐-----------------

    Here are some details regarding those Masłomęcz males who were studied by the researchers from Warsaw and Lublin (ie. the team headed by the geneticist Piotr Węgleński from Warsaw and the archaeologist Andrzej Kokowski from Lublin).

    Among the 43 individuals from five different cemeteries (dated to 2nd-4th cent. AD, mostly to the mid 3rd cent. AD), there were 18 males (42%), with most of them (13 or 72%) assigned to haplogroup I1a.

    Most of them (9 individuals) were from branch Z63 (all from clade Y2245) and the remaining four were from branch Z58>Z59 (2 individuals) and from branch Y2592 (2 individuals, both from clade L22>FGC41265).

    As for the nine Z63>>Y2245 males, six of them were from subclade Y3968 (including four Y3979 and one L1242) and the three remaining individuals were from subclade L1237>Y6634. I was told that there were no close relatives among those I1a males.

    Here are all "terminal" subclades that could have been assigned to those 13 Masłomęcz Goths from haplogroup I1a:

    I-Y6634 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y6634/
    I-Y6634
    I-BY3386 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-BY3386/
    I-Y3968 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3968/
    I-L1242 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L1242/
    I-Y3979 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3979/
    I-Y3979
    I-Y7626 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y7626/
    I-Y7626
    I-Z2041 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z2041/
    I-Y46812 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y46812/
    I-CTS11603 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS11603/
    I-S9318 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S9318/

    Additionally, there were also four R1a males and one individual from haplogroup J2b.

    As for the males from haplogroup R1a, one of them was a member of the Scandinavian branch R-Z284, although I don't know his exact downstream subclade. This increases the percentage of all presumably Scandinavian/Germanic lineages in Masłomęcz to about 78%.

    The three remaining R1a males were all from branch Z280, with two of them assigned to the "Balto-Slavic" clade CTS1211 (see below), while the third one was classified as R-YP6213 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP6213/), although I suspect that this classification was based on the YFull tree alone, and thus he could have been positive only for some SNPs high upstream of YP6213. According to FTDNA, subclade YP6213 is a relatively young subclade (found in England only) that is a part of a much older clade FT6375 (Z280>FT6375>YP6228>FT211807>YP6233>YP6213). Since both YP6213 and its (grand)parental clade FT6375 are very rare today and don't show any specific association with the Balto-Slavs or Slavs, it seems that they weren't originally associated with the expanding Proto-Slavs.

    One of the two Z280>CTS1211 males was classified as R-YP4258 (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-YP4258/) (Z280>CTS1211>YP1034>YP4258). This subclade seems to be most common among people originating from the Baltic countries, and this is consistent with the fact that the R-YP4258 "Goth" was found in a grave from Grůdek that showed some unusual features indicating Baltic origin.

    The other Z280>CTS1211 male was assigned to R-YP340 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP340/) (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340), a clade showing strong association with the modern Slavs (ie. being relatively frequent among West, East and South Slavs). Unfortunately, I don't know whether this individual was negative for all three major subclades under YP340 (ie. YP371, P278 and FGC2555). It would be interesting to know his autosomal results and the exact archaeological context.

    Finally, the only case of J2b was classified as J-Z38241 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38241/). His autosomal results were clearly different (when compared to the remaining Masłomęcz males) and suggested South European (Balkan?) ancestry. Importantly, he was found in one of the earliest graves (dated to about 180 AD), so the authors suspect that he was associated with the original local population, assimilated by the incoming Goths.
    Waldemar... Any samples turn out to be u106ers? Cheers!
    Y-DNA: 5th GGF Capt. Johann Martin Weber, 1st PA Rifles, Rev. War, b. 1739 in Germany, d. 1804 Paxton, PA. : R1b-U106-DF98 - S4004 - FGC14817(5 SNPs) with 6drif-3 soldier of York! Pennsylvania Scots Irish/German frontiersmen/colonial vets.

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher/O'Kennedy/MacEgan, Lorrha/Dorrha, Tipp - T2b2b. Mother's dad The O'Dwyer - O'Dwyers of Kilnamanagh/Ballagh Maguires/Fermanagh matching descendants of Irish exiles in Europe.

    Hebridean/Highland Scots both sides ;-).

  8. #845
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    Quote Originally Posted by W‚ldpykjong View Post
    I'm using the Germani and Low Saxons from south Lower Saxony interchangeably. I rather group them together with Central Dutch and Westphalians genetically. I was trying to illustrate that the Germani as this "other" population are genetically distinct from the Anglo-Saxons/Northern Lower Saxons from the coast since from the Scandinavian puritan's perception the Proto-Germanic homeland DOES NOT stretch from the Harz mountains to Scania but is rather limited to Scania where does Anglo-Saxons ultimately originally came from.

    The original Frisii show a large discrepancy in Y-DNA chromosome's compared to those Anglo-Saxons newcomers (modern Frisians) which seem to be of mostly Bell Beaker origin. The Northern Netherlands was never part of the Proto-Germanic homeland. Suggesting Nordwestblock and Elp were Proto-Germanic is higly debatable and a whole discussion on it's own. I'm leaving that discussion out for now..

    If anything north of the Harz mountains would've been distinctively Germanic the areas below Scania would've shown more proximity on PCA plots to the Scandinavians forming this large homogenous Proto-Germanic group according to Udolph.

    We can definitely agree on that Jastorf is part of Proto-Germanic as it's also clearly shown on one of the chart. Wether to include the Northern Netherlands into that sparkle is something I personally haven't made my mind up on yet.. But I'm not convinced either whether a purely Swedish origin is plausible for Proto-Germanic. One thing I know for sure is that Early Middle-Age Germanics from the former Jastorf (presumably Proto-Germanic) area moved into the Northern Netherlands who's modern population is genetically closest to Danes.. Wether a Germanic migration in 1 AD took place into the Northern Netherlands is really up to debate.
    Lets dispense with the term Germani cos I find it confusing.

    Nobody is going say that these "westphalians" were not "Germanic" at some point. Granted if you talking about the origins of only Anglo Saxons then I cant disagree with a Denmark-Scania location.

    However I see the the origins of AS AND Germans as a whole is being fixed to Scania by Scandinavian puritans. So now I have to split the origins of Germans, and the origin of German apart.

    My understanding was that in the BA the region was full of Para Germanic dialects (including NW Block). One of these dialects would go on to become German and subsume/replace all the others. This "new" language, covering a large area obviously broke down into regional variants over time, eventually becoming north sea, eastern, rhine, suebian etc. So how can we pinpoint where in the para germanic universe German came from, if the whole region most probaly saw endless internal migrations north to south, and vice versa, and population collapse and resurgence on several occasions.

    As you said at some point the original Frisians were replaced by AS like peoples, but its generally accepted afaik that the original Frisians, Batavi, Cannanfrates etc spoke Germanic and worshipped Germanic cults. So that in itself reveals that a not pure CNE population were speaking Germanic before their actual replacement by more pure AS Germanics, which is confusing.

    Anyway, again I emphasise that Harz to Scania likely represents the core Germanic speaking area as a whole by 500BC which is what I think Udolf was trying to say. The word "proto" was used in a confusing way. He focused on 1000BC to 500BC, however most would agree that in fact the proto stage was earlier in the bronze age. Such a concept is incompatible with Udolfs affilitation to the Old European school, which postulates undivided Indo European lasting until at least 1000BC. Hence his late dates for "proto" Germanic.

    If we swap "proto" for homeland, then it makes sense of Udolfs interpretation that from this core region, after 500BC, sprang all Germanic migrations that were witnessed in antiquity. So the proto Germanic origin, and then the Germanic "homeland" by 500BC are 2 separate things. If scandinavian puritans continue to insist that Scania was BOTH of those things, then thats an extremely narrow and exclusionary definition of "Germanic", which leads to the conclusion that all "Germanics" in Holland, Westphalia, Rhineland were conquered, colonized and were "Germanic" in name only until the post roman period. (I dont know if todays rhinelanders have more or less CNE). Therefore their inclusion in Germania, and labelling as Germani cant be justified at all (unless these are true "Germani" in the literary sense, 1st century BC/ADbut the not the true "Germans" from further north, in the genetic sense. The visible differences between them in the 1st century BC were probably minimal so the label is a catch all applied to the region from the southwest to the northeast POV), at least linguistically justifiable.

    Its probably a better idea to call your Germani as "Istvaeones", although why the Chattii and Cherusci were not considered so by Pliny IDK, maybe lack of info. If they were already Herminiones (i.e. Suebi) that may explain a CNE introgression into the region, but I'd say they werent suebi as Tacitus did not include them in his description of Suebi (but he did include Angili and Eudoses as suebi, perhaps implying that the Suebi were CNE rich northerns, heirs of the Jastorf culture and proven by early bavarians/ alemanni?. So it seems the CNE rich "true" Germans split into North Sea, Suebian, and East Germans. The Isvaeonnes seem to be a different ball game entirely and may represent a pre german substrat population, which represent the true Franks)

    Sorry for the ramble. I am discovering probably what you all already knew anyway.
    Last edited by Straboo; 08-12-2022 at 02:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    So grouping all people above the Rhine together and suppose a common heartland (Urheimat) is fully outdated history writing. It's like searching for Excalibur. It can be done but actually it exist only in the imagination of the one who supposes it! Fruitless!
    Except its not. The whole region from Scania to Augsburg, and later Basel was supposed to be Germanic speaking. The language spread from north to south. Thats means the langauge has to have an origin location, a stronghold so to speak.

    You are right that all germani cant be considered a genetically homogenous pure CNE population.

    But the Scando puritans would insist that actually southern scandinavia is the source of "real" German ancestry and language, de facto making that region the urheimat/homeland of the "true" germans (in the pre antiquity sense). Everbody south of Hamburg/east of Schwerin is admixed with or assimilated/replaced by them. Thats my interpretation. So calling Chattii or Franks "German" would be like calling medieval berbers in spain "arabs". Sure the elite in both may come from Scania/southern levant, but these would be primarily linguistic and broadly cultural labels.

    Thanks anyway for pointing out the diferrences between north germans and "others". Makes me view the Cherusci, Chatti, sigambri, tencteri etc in a whole new interesting way now
    Last edited by Straboo; 08-12-2022 at 02:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldemar View Post
    The main stage of the project "Dynasty and society of the Piast state in the light of integrated historical, anthropological and genomic research" has been completed.

    At the end of 2021, the consortium formed by the Institute of Bioorganic Chemistry of the Polish Academy of Sciences and the Faculty of History and the Faculty of Biology of the University of Adam Mickiewicz in Poznań has completed the implementation of the first Polish archaeogenomics project. It was financed by the National Science Center, and its main goal was to learn about the genetic history of the population that made up the Piast state.

    - This means that the stage of collecting various historical, archaeological, anthropological and genomic data has already been completed - informs the project manager, Prof. Marek Figlerowicz. Some of the results obtained have already been published in 18 articles that have appeared in both national and international scientific journals. If you are interested, we encourage you to read them. Papers presenting the remaining results have already been sent for printing or are under preparation.

    The project was the first attempt to use modern biological approaches to create a comprehensive description of the genetic structure of the population inhabiting the area of ​​modern Poland in the first millennium of our era and to confront the obtained information with the existing knowledge about social, economic and political processes leading to the formation of Polish statehood. The aim of the project was to verify previous hypotheses regarding the origin of the Piast state community, its elites and the ruling dynasty. In addition, we wanted to state: (i) whether the ancestors of the Slavs inhabited the area between the Oder and the Vistula before the period of great migrations of peoples, or they came to these areas later, and (ii) whether the area of ​​modern Poland was inhabited by isolated or open populations, mixing with each other and with neighboring populations.

    The planned multidisciplinary, interdisciplinary research was carried out using both classical methods used in historical sciences, in archeology and anthropology, as well as the latest technologies used in biological sciences, including next-generation sequencing (NGS). The main object of research were bone remains collected from 29 cemeteries in Poland and from 10 Piast necropolises. In total, we collected 1,125 bone fragments from over 700 burials. Each of them was described in detail in terms of age, structure and equipment, the nature of which indicated the social status of the deceased. DNA was isolated from all bone samples and subjected to initial analysis by NGS. 710 samples containing human DNA in quantities sufficient for deep sequencing were qualified for further research. Then, taking into account the age of the bones, the DNA samples were divided into two groups: R representing the Roman period, 1st-4th century CE. (145) and WS representing the early medieval period, 10th-12th centuries AD (565). In addition, the WS group was divided into three, taking into account the probable social status of people: P (Piasts, 71 samples), E (elite, 100 samples) and NE (non-elite, 394 samples). All DNA samples were deeply sequenced. For each of them, we tried to determine the genetic gender and as many genetic markers as possible, such as the mitochondrial haplogroup, the Y chromosome haplogroup (for men) or single nucleotide polymorphism. Based on the comparative analysis of markers, we examined the genetic structure of individual populations and their relationships with other populations, both modern and previously living throughout Europe. In addition, we determined the presumptive appearance of selected individuals and their predisposition to certain diseases. We also identified a number of bacteria, including pathogenic ones, accompanying individuals living in Poland one thousand and two thousand years ago. The information obtained from genomic research was confronted with the results of both previous and project-based historical, archaeological and anthropological research.

    We have shown that, contrary to earlier opinions, the populations living two thousand years ago in contemporary Poland were not isolated and closed, but open. The genetic variation observed within them was similar to that present in European societies. The population that made up these populations belonged to two main cultures, the older local (Przeworsk) and the newly emerging Wielbark. In the case of the former, genomic studies are extremely difficult due to the common practice of cremating a corpse. In the case of the second one, we found that the first stage of its spread in Poland was related to the migration of mainly men genetically similar to the then inhabitants of the Jutland Peninsula. The obtained results confirm the hypothesis that the expansion of the Wielbark culture was related to the Goths' journeys. On the basis of genome-wide analyzes, we characterized the genetic structure of the population related to the Wielbark culture. As its representatives mixed with the local population, we also indirectly obtained information on the genetic structure of the population belonging to the Przeworsk culture. Then we determined the genetic structure of the population inhabiting the territory of modern Poland during the formation of the Piast state. We found it to have most of the characteristics of modern Western Slavs. Additionally, within the elite, we observed the presence of components typical of Western Europe. Comparing the DNA of individuals from the R and WS groups allowed to verify the earlier hypotheses about the origin of the Slavs. The thesis describing this issue has already been sent for printing.

    In the first stage of research on the origin of the Piasts, we verified our knowledge of over 350 Piast burials described in the literature. It turned out that most of them no longer rest or are mixed with others. We identified 16 males which we can say with certainty are representatives of the Piast dynasty. For each of them, we determined the Y chromosome haplogroup and a number of other genetic markers. On this basis, we established their genetic relationships with the local and neighboring populations. In the case of one of the Piasts, it was also possible to reconstruct the appearance of the face on the basis of the preserved skull. Detailed research results will be published soon.

    https://portal.ichb.pl/zasadniczy-et...al-zakonczony/

    ‐-----------------

    Here are some details regarding those Masłomęcz males who were studied by the researchers from Warsaw and Lublin (ie. the team headed by the geneticist Piotr Węgleński from Warsaw and the archaeologist Andrzej Kokowski from Lublin).

    Among the 43 individuals from five different cemeteries (dated to 2nd-4th cent. AD, mostly to the mid 3rd cent. AD), there were 18 males (42%), with most of them (13 or 72%) assigned to haplogroup I1a.

    Most of them (9 individuals) were from branch Z63 (all from clade Y2245) and the remaining four were from branch Z58>Z59 (2 individuals) and from branch Y2592 (2 individuals, both from clade L22>FGC41265).

    As for the nine Z63>>Y2245 males, six of them were from subclade Y3968 (including four Y3979 and one L1242) and the three remaining individuals were from subclade L1237>Y6634. I was told that there were no close relatives among those I1a males.

    Here are all "terminal" subclades that could have been assigned to those 13 Masłomęcz Goths from haplogroup I1a:

    I-Y6634 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y6634/
    I-Y6634
    I-BY3386 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-BY3386/
    I-Y3968 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3968/
    I-L1242 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L1242/
    I-Y3979 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3979/
    I-Y3979
    I-Y7626 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y7626/
    I-Y7626
    I-Z2041 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z2041/
    I-Y46812 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y46812/
    I-CTS11603 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS11603/
    I-S9318 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S9318/

    Additionally, there were also four R1a males and one individual from haplogroup J2b.

    As for the males from haplogroup R1a, one of them was a member of the Scandinavian branch R-Z284, although I don't know his exact downstream subclade. This increases the percentage of all presumably Scandinavian/Germanic lineages in Masłomęcz to about 78%.

    The three remaining R1a males were all from branch Z280, with two of them assigned to the "Balto-Slavic" clade CTS1211 (see below), while the third one was classified as R-YP6213 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP6213/), although I suspect that this classification was based on the YFull tree alone, and thus he could have been positive only for some SNPs high upstream of YP6213. According to FTDNA, subclade YP6213 is a relatively young subclade (found in England only) that is a part of a much older clade FT6375 (Z280>FT6375>YP6228>FT211807>YP6233>YP6213). Since both YP6213 and its (grand)parental clade FT6375 are very rare today and don't show any specific association with the Balto-Slavs or Slavs, it seems that they weren't originally associated with the expanding Proto-Slavs.

    One of the two Z280>CTS1211 males was classified as R-YP4258 (https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-YP4258/) (Z280>CTS1211>YP1034>YP4258). This subclade seems to be most common among people originating from the Baltic countries, and this is consistent with the fact that the R-YP4258 "Goth" was found in a grave from Grůdek that showed some unusual features indicating Baltic origin.

    The other Z280>CTS1211 male was assigned to R-YP340 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP340/) (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340), a clade showing strong association with the modern Slavs (ie. being relatively frequent among West, East and South Slavs). Unfortunately, I don't know whether this individual was negative for all three major subclades under YP340 (ie. YP371, P278 and FGC2555). It would be interesting to know his autosomal results and the exact archaeological context.

    Finally, the only case of J2b was classified as J-Z38241 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38241/). His autosomal results were clearly different (when compared to the remaining Masłomęcz males) and suggested South European (Balkan?) ancestry. Importantly, he was found in one of the earliest graves (dated to about 180 AD), so the authors suspect that he was associated with the original local population, assimilated by the incoming Goths.
    I dont find Masłomecz findings are that relevant. Again I have to emphasise that particular region was already settled by Bastarnae almost 300 years before, and formed a local group in the area, well documented by archaeologists.

    J2b as local population? Based on 1 sample? Sounds a bit weird. It could be merchant, or slave or anyhting but local.

    Also, if in theory the Basternae and Goths come from the same zone of origin (broadly speaking), then how can we be sure the I1a samples dont include local Bastarnae clades assimilated by the Goths?
    Last edited by Straboo; 08-12-2022 at 01:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    Waldemar... Any samples turn out to be u106ers? Cheers!
    13 I1 4 R1a and 1 J2 out of 18 there is no room for R1b in the samples so no.
    Correction obviously no R1b-u106 in Masłomęcz samples
    Perhaps Piast had some or not as they are different from Maslomecz afaik
    Last edited by venustas; 08-12-2022 at 01:28 AM.
    Maternal Uncle y-line= F0R1b1-L21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Straboo View Post
    Except its not. The whole region from Scania to Augsburg, and later Basel was supposed to be Germanic speaking. The language spread from north to south. Thats means the langauge has to have an origin location, a stronghold so to speak.

    You are right that all germani cant be considered a genetically homogenous pure CNE population.

    But the Scando puritans would insist that actually southern scandinavia is the source of "real" German ancestry and language, de facto making that region the urheimat/homeland of the "true" germans. Everbody south of Hamburg/east of Scherin is admixed with or assimilated/replaced by them. Thats my interpretation. So calling Chattii or Franks "German" would be like calling medieval moors in spain "arabs". Sure the elite in both may come from Scania/southern levant, but these would be primarily linguistic and broadly cultural labels.

    Thanks anyway for pointing out the diferrences between north germans and "others". Makes me view the Cherusci, Chatti, sigambri, tencteri etc in a whole new interesting way now
    The word "German" is Latin in origin. Different translations, definitions etc have been giving and debated over. Point being, they grouped all people's above the Rhine as one. Wether it be Celts or Germanics. Like Finn mentioned, the Romans found it important enough to mention the "Germani" as a subset of the Celts. Generally considered to be more barbaric and Germania was viewed as a "pure" nation with no outside influences according to Tacitus.

    I don't think everyone here would agree that the label "Germanic" is appropriate for the people's east of the Rhine. But from there on it's going to become some new feud of semantics. Those people speak a Germanic language and are broadly to be considered culturally Germanic. Genetics aren't getting simplified by cultural and ethnolinguistic labels.
    Last edited by W‚ldpykjong; 08-12-2022 at 01:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by W‚ldpykjong View Post
    The word "German" is Latin in origin. Different translations, definitions etc have been giving and debated over. Point being, they grouped all people's above the Rhine as one. Wether it be Celts or Germanics. Like Finn mentioned, the Romans found it important enough to mention the "Germani" as a subset of the Celts. Generally considered to be more barbaric and Germania was viewed as a "pure" nation with no outside influences according to Tacitus.

    I don't think everyone here would agree that the label "Germanic" is appropriate for the people's east of the Rhine. But from there on it's going to become some new feud of semantics. Those people speak a Germanic language and are broadly to be considered culturally Germanic. Genetics aren't getting simplified by cultural and ethnolinguistic labels.
    Seems to me it was applied precisely to the Istvaeones group. In fact at first a mere single tribe of such group located west of the Rhine, and then later to the whole lower rhine region, and then to all Germania. These are the Germani of Caeser and fit nicely with your central holland, westphalia, south lower saxony group (Idk about more south regions). You originally called them Germani and it seems you were right but I did not understand at the time what you meant.

    RE Germanic: Agreed. I also dont beleive that "Arab" should be applied to the entire region west of Suez. Buts thats the world we live in.
    Last edited by Straboo; 08-12-2022 at 01:59 AM.

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