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    Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

    Morning, all. I am new to this forum, so I am not sure if this is in line with forum etiquette and what have you. Anyway, I was listening to an interview with J.P. Mallory on Razib Khan's Unsupervised Learning podcast and Khan mentioned an upcoming (but delayed) paper on A-S migration and genetics. The crux of the upcoming paper seems to be that the new research suggests that there was indeed a large population replacement / migration in the period (which has been the crux of many debates around the A-S migration period). The paper would seem to strengthen the case for population change over cultural change. From what I can glean from Khan, the paper claims that currently relatively low levels of 'Anglo-Saxon' DNA (<40%) in English populations is due to significant wash-back of British DNA in the following centuries. This is because the topography of England favours high mobility, enabling lots of mixing and, specifically, west to east movement of individuals with more 'Celtic' ancestry. Over the centuries, this means that the A-S component has been diluted. The analysis uses ancient DNA samples to show that the A-S migration (or invasion, if you prefer) was more significant than recent archaeologists have acknowledged (Oosthuizen, Fleming, Pryor, et al.)

    So, my basic question is, has anyone else heard of this paper? This is not the first time I have caught wind of it -- apparently it has been 'in the works' for a while -- but I am getting a bit impatient to read it. Has it ever been discussed here? Does anyone know who is conducting it or in which institute?

    Cheers!

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    I became aware of this study around a year ago. I've been eagerly awaiting it ever since! If I'm not mistaken, the team doing it includes some of the same people as those who worked on the early study of Anglo-Saxon graves in Cambridgeshire (Stephan Schiffels and Duncan Sayer). The figure being thrown around was a whopping 80% population replacement in southeastern England based on a fairly large number of samples. It makes sense that the figure would be more diluted in the present-day population, given regional variation in settlement patterns and the fact that people migrate internally a lot. Having listened to the podcast, I think the original study by Schiffels and Sayer from 2016 is what Khan was talking about. However, he was actually mistaken with regards to the debate - those genetic studies have increased many archaeologists' estimates of the Anglo-Saxon migration, rather than decreasing them.

    I wonder if part of the reason that the paper is delayed is because of the potential for controversy. After all, it seems like it's going to blow the views of the likes of Pryor and Oosthuizen out of the water. And not a moment too soon - I thought that their brand of anti-migrationism had gone out of fashion some time ago?
    Last edited by Cartographer; 10-13-2021 at 01:38 AM.

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    That is promising. Yes, I also hope that the researchers are not being over-dramatic in their claims. Let's hope they weren't trying to drum up interest in their paper! I am also aware that it had not been through peer review, so perhaps that picked up weaknesses that the authors were asked to address. But it could be political, as you state. I don't think I've ever heard of a genetics paper being delayed for that, though. Has that happened before? We've had plenty of bombshells in recent years that blew the 'anti-migrationists' out of the water, so I am not sure this would be slowed down for that reason. Anyway, I have my fingers crossed that something will be published soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brittunculi View Post
    Has it ever been discussed here? Does anyone know who is conducting it or in which institute?

    Cheers!
    How about this thread? https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....t-al-in-review
    where the OP linked to this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXsNKNZtdM0
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    Thanks, but I think that is relating to the Late Bronze Age rather than the Anglo-Saxon migration period. That is also a paper I am eagerly looking forward to, however! We Britons might be a bit spoilt in the coming months if these papers are eventually published.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brittunculi View Post
    Morning, all. I am new to this forum, so I am not sure if this is in line with forum etiquette and what have you. Anyway, I was listening to an interview with J.P. Mallory on Razib Khan's Unsupervised Learning podcast and Khan mentioned an upcoming (but delayed) paper on A-S migration and genetics. The crux of the upcoming paper seems to be that the new research suggests that there was indeed a large population replacement / migration in the period (which has been the crux of many debates around the A-S migration period). The paper would seem to strengthen the case for population change over cultural change. From what I can glean from Khan, the paper claims that currently relatively low levels of 'Anglo-Saxon' DNA (<40%) in English populations is due to significant wash-back of British DNA in the following centuries. This is because the topography of England favours high mobility, enabling lots of mixing and, specifically, west to east movement of individuals with more 'Celtic' ancestry. Over the centuries, this means that the A-S component has been diluted. The analysis uses ancient DNA samples to show that the A-S migration (or invasion, if you prefer) was more significant than recent archaeologists have acknowledged (Oosthuizen, Fleming, Pryor, et al.)

    So, my basic question is, has anyone else heard of this paper? This is not the first time I have caught wind of it -- apparently it has been 'in the works' for a while -- but I am getting a bit impatient to read it. Has it ever been discussed here? Does anyone know who is conducting it or in which institute?

    Cheers!
    I think this is what you're after. It was posted on Anthrogenica last year.

    THE ANGLO-SAXON MIGRATION AND FORMATION OF THE EARLY ENGLISH GENE POOL
    Abstract author(s): Gretzinger, Joscha (Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History) - Altena, Eveline (Leiden Uni-versity Medical Center, University of Leiden) - Papac, Luka (Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History) - Krause, Johannes (Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History; Faculty of Biosciences, University of Jena) - Sayer, Duncan (School of Forensic and Applied Sciences, University of Central Lancashire) - Schiffels, Stephan (Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History)
    A series of migrations and accompanied cultural changes has formed the peoples of Britain and still represents the foundations of the English national identity. For the most prominent of these, the Anglo-Saxon migration, the traditional view, resting upon historical sources and derived concepts of ethnic and national origins from the 19th century, outlined that the indigenous Romanised British population was forcibly replaced by invading Germanic tribes, starting in the 5th century AD. However, to which extent this historic event coincided with factual immigration that affected the genetic composition of the British population was focus of generations of scientific and social controversy. To better understand this key period, we have so far generated genome-wide sequences from 80 individuals from eight cemeteries in East and South England. We combined this data with previously published genome-wide data to a total dataset of more than 200 ancient British genomes spanning from the Early Bronze Age to the Early Middle Ages, allowing us to investigate shifts and affinities in British fine-scale population structure during this phase of transformation. Here we present two preliminary results: First, we detect a substantial increase in continental Northern European ancestry akin to the extant Danish and Northern German populations during the Early Anglo-Saxon period, replacing approximately 80% of the indigenous British ancestry during that time period. Second, we nevertheless highlight the continuous presence of ancestry identified in Pre-Saxon Iron Age and Roman individuals during the Early and Middle Anglo-Saxon period, originating in the Early British Bronze Age and closely resembling present-day Celtic-speaking populations from Ireland and Scotland. Therefore, our study suggests that the early English population was the outcome of long-term ethnogenetic processes in which the acculturation and assimilation of native Britons into the immigrating Anglo-Saxon society played a key role.
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    Thanks, mate. I actually emailed Stephan Schiffels yesterday following the suggestion from @Cartographer, and Stephan got back to me saying that the paper is in the draft stage and will be submitted to a journal before the end of this year. As to the claims, he said he 'cannot comment on the [Anglo-Saxon] estimates being higher [than previously thought]', which could suggest a revision following drafting, or he could just be reticent to share the paper details. Anyway, we will have to wait a while longer, unfortunately, as it will probably be published sometime around spring (I assume).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brittunculi View Post
    Thanks, mate. I actually emailed Stephan Schiffels yesterday following the suggestion from @Cartographer, and Stephan got back to me saying that the paper is in the draft stage and will be submitted to a journal before the end of this year. As to the claims, he said he 'cannot comment on the [Anglo-Saxon] estimates being higher [than previously thought]', which could suggest a revision following drafting, or he could just be reticent to share the paper details. Anyway, we will have to wait a while longer, unfortunately, as it will probably be published sometime around spring (I assume).

    Any updates from Stephan regarding this study being published? I first heard about the abstract for this study back in September 2020.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    Any updates from Stephan regarding this study being published? I first heard about the abstract for this study back in September 2020.

    I went ahead and emailed Dr. Schiffels. He was kind enough to reply. He said the study is going to come out this summer. Probably July is his best guess.
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