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Thread: Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

  1. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garimund View Post
    I’m pretty sure the SW European influx they are speaking of came from the post Norman period, in the era of the Plantagenets, Angevin kings of England.
    If it relates to the French IA signal, it was definitely coming in before then, in the EMA, given it was found in a number of A-S coastal sites. I took it to mean that it was the Occitanie samples that were the source of the French IA signal.....again, probably wrong

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  3. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadegreg View Post
    If it relates to the French IA signal, it was definitely coming in before then, in the EMA, given it was found in a number of A-S coastal sites. I took it to mean that it was the Occitanie samples that were the source of the French IA signal.....again, probably wrong
    What are the Occitanie samples? That is exactly the location shown during the presentation.

  4. #693
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    I did a little digging and came up with some dates that are probably important. It is generally agreed that the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes invaded Britain in the 5th century. Bede wrote 449AD, to be exact. The Vandals invaded Gaul around 406AD. The Franks had conquered North Eastern Gaul by 480AD and all of Gaul by 536AD. I had originally thought that maybe there was a run on Britain from Gaul by people who had the means to escape the coming Franks, but if you look at the dates, they are all very close, so would a large number of people flee Gaul to Britain, who were themselves being invaded by Anglo-Saxons? Probably not. And if the Franks did invade England, would their contingent have a large enough amount of France IA to actually be detectable that early after they conquered Gaul? I don't know.

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  6. #694
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    IMO the association with whole tribes like Bede has done, Angles, Saxons and Jutes is misleading. It were not whole tribes that went oversea.

    I guess it's more (sea)warlords with their entourage (Gefolgschaft) that went oversea or like the Frankish warlords did overland. This entourage, the warbands, doesn't equal whole tribes, they were in some sense a selection out of it.

    I guess that later on came to be know as Angles, Saxons and Jutes all fished from the same (gene)pool in the "bottleneck" of nowadays Schleswig and Jutland.... That is obviously the CNE genepool.

    Mark that the Saxons were, according to historian Matthias Springer, a bunch of pirates that invaded in Lower Saxony. So it were not the former Chauci but a bunch from the CNE genenpool situated in the bottle neck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by codom View Post
    What are the Occitanie samples? That is exactly the location shown during the presentation.
    The Occitanie samples were from the PNAS paper Brunel et al (2020) Ancient genomes from present-day France unveil 7,000 years of its demographic history.

    Link here:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art....201918034.pdf


    Just found the Normandie Gauls too.........

    Fischer et al (2022) Origin and mobility of Iron Age Gaulish groups in present-day France revealed through archaeogenomics

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...89004222003649
    Last edited by jadegreg; 06-30-2022 at 09:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jadegreg View Post
    If it relates to the French IA signal, it was definitely coming in before then, in the EMA, given it was found in a number of A-S coastal sites. I took it to mean that it was the Occitanie samples that were the source of the French IA signal.....again, probably wrong
    It does say this signal comes in after the Early Middle Ages. The Angevin empire was during the 12th and 13th centuries, with more immigrants probably coming in for the next centuries after.
    AncestryDNA(Aug 2022): England & NW Europe 45%, Scotland 22%, Ireland 19%, Wales 9%, Sweden & Denmark 2%, Germanic Europe 2%, Cameron, Congo 1%

    Living DNA:
    Great Britain and Ireland 100%
    N. Ireland and SW Scotland 26.2%, SC England 17.7%, Central England 17.3%, S Wales Border 8%, East Anglia 7.6%, NW Scotland 6%, Ireland 5.8%, NW England 5%, N Wales 3.2%, Aberdeenshire 1.8%, SE England 1.3%

    G25 Iron Age
    42.4 Northern_Britannia_IA
    37.0 Gallic_LaTene_IA
    20.6 Dane_Sjaelland_Skane_IA

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  12. #697
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    Quote Originally Posted by codom View Post
    The Early European Farmer ancestry which increased in the Late Bronze Age (Patterson et al) decreases in the Early Middle Ages. It then goes back up after the Early Middle Ages caused by a further migration from South West Europe (likely just north of the Pyrenees).
    Modern English created of 2 admixture events since Iron Age, one from northern Continental Europe and a second from France.
    I Love how this seems to contradict all of the theories we have been throwing around: Britons? No. Franks? No. Flemings? No.

    Edit: Although I am listening to the History Extra podcast, and Sayer specifically mentions an influx of DNA associated with the French AND Belgium Iron Age in the post-Roman period. Mmm...
    Last edited by Brittunculi; 06-30-2022 at 11:59 PM.

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    Per this site https://www.englandsimmigrants.com/s...Gascony&page=1

    The Gascon locations (Devon and Gloucester) arenít aligning with the highest French IA areas of Britain (Suffolk and Norfolk)

    Nationalities/regions with the highest concentration in Suffolk and Norfolk are the Dutch, Holanders, Brabenters, Flemish, Zealand, and Leige.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 07-01-2022 at 12:12 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 15% Scottish, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 11% Ulster Scot, 5% Ireland, 3% Scandinavian, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    "Nemo est supra leges."

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  16. #699
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    I’m trying to force myself to think outside my box.

    My box/bias is thinking U152 In Britain primarily arrived in Middle/Late Iron Age and Roman Era.

    Putting that aside, the highest present day U152 percentage north of the Alps is in Leige Belgium at 32%

    Here is Leige province



    And here are the Salian Franks in 358 AD.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Foederatus.png

    I’ve mentally noted this overlap before, but it didn’t fit my narrative so I didn’t pursue it further.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 07-01-2022 at 01:20 AM.
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    35% English, 15% Scottish, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 11% Ulster Scot, 5% Ireland, 3% Scandinavian, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    "Nemo est supra leges."

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  18. #700
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    I don't know if this picture from the presentation has been posted before. It shows likely locations for the French_IA component.
    Fullscreen capture 01072022 021452.jpg

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