Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

[V-X]

doubt that the majority of the France Iron Age-like ancestry is going to be post-Norman and rather will be late Iron Age and Roman era

Unless I have misinterpreted, the French component is found in the present day population but not in the iron age or early middle age populations of Britain. So these migrants carrying French IA ancestry must have arrived after the early middle ages, unless they arrived earlier but for some didnt mix with the existing population and are hidden in the EMA samples. Have I misunderstood something?

[DFSTFD]

I always thought the Norman impact on the British Isles might be severely underestimated, regardless of how much it really was, it won't be "just nothing of importance". Since I'm specialised on E-V13, I noticed that some regions with higher concentration of E-V13 in Ireland for example might be associated with Norman era settlement. That doesn't tell us where exactly they came from, but its possible, just possible, that some lineages entered Ireland from the Norman zone in Britain and might have been there no longer than Norman rule.
The biggest issue is here once more the lack of testing. Like I know about a lot of E-V13 in France of which only a miniscule number has tested the BigY and an even smaller number had done the upload to YFull.

Btw, Matt at Eurogenes linked something that might interest you. Some of the northwestern parts of Wales seem to have a hotspot of it.

[Riverman]

Btw, Matt at Eurogenes linked something that might interest you. Some of the northwestern parts of Wales seem to have a hotspot of it.

Thank you! Looks like a regional founder effect, but would be great to know the subclades like always. There is at first look a negative correlation with I1 and a positive with R1b-S128 within England-Wales. Interesting. Will be also interesting which percentage of I1 the different tribal groups of the Early Anglo Saxons had.

[MitchellSince1893]

I must be missing something. According to map on left,
Iron Age and Roman Era immigrants to Britain came from Denmark, N Germany, Poland, Ukraine and Czechoslovakia?

Think I figured out what I was missing.
The map on left is showing pre 400 AD CNE=Anglo Saxon ancestry origins, not British Isles ancestry origins.

This would imply a genetic similarity between the traditional home of the Anglo Saxons and folks from Poland, Ukraine, and Czechoslovakia.

Edit jonvikW is saying something similar in post 384.

So map on left isn’t telling us anything about pre 400 ad immigrates to Britain.

[V-X]

This would imply a genetic similarity between the traditional home of the Anglo Saxons and folks from Poland, Ukraine, and Czechoslovakia.

I believe the left map is a version of this, but presumably based on genetics rather than written sources.

pre_migration_age_germanic.png

I think one interesting aspect of the right hand map is the lack of migrants in Northern France and Loire valley, but I suppose that's a topic for a different thread.

[Finn]

Think I figured out what I was missing.
The map on left is showing pre 400 AD CNE=Anglo Saxon ancestry origins, not British Isles ancestry origins.

This would imply a genetic similarity between the traditional home of the Anglo Saxons and folks from Poland, Ukraine, and Czechoslovakia.

Edit jonvikW is saying something similar in post 384.

So map on left isn’t telling us anything about pre 400 ad immigrates to Britain.

I'm thinking about the Germanic chieftain from Poprad......

[MitchellSince1893]

Unless I have misinterpreted, the French component is found in the present day population but not in the iron age or early middle age populations of Britain. So these migrants carrying French IA ancestry must have arrived after the early middle ages, unless they arrived earlier but for some didnt mix with the existing population and are hidden in the EMA samples. Have I misunderstood something?

We know from archeology and history that French IA, ie Gaul, was present in Britain. Much of southern England was occupied by “Belgic” tribes, and the Parisi tribe in Yorkshire was thought to have originated in the Paris area. Some tribal names e.g Atrebates are found on both sides of the Channel. There are many other examples of Gauls in Britain

[Finn]

No it is not an outlier. Wealthy people generally have more problems with the inheritance. This is a general demographic problem, that material wealth doesn't necessarily create more offspring. Norman inheritance was peculiar though, because it didn't practise gavelkind as much as others did. But both commoners and aristocrats could be very successful breeders or catastrophic failures, oftentimes just depending on sheer luck - like if the whole family fell victim to a plague or military aggression. Generally speaking, there was some advantage of the wealthy, but I wouldn't overestimate it.

I guess for the period we are talking about elite migration could have been in smal number still with a major impact. A nice example- I'm really into now- is the entourage c.q. gefolgschaft of the Danish warlord in the ninth century in Friesland. Their number were probably not that big....nevertheless it pops up in the nowadays genetic profile.

I guess for those times, the early middle ages, meant belonging to the elite a higher survival rate (better food etc) and being a desirable wedding partner. Through this they could leave a significant footprint on a certain genepool.

See also the Iceland case!

[V-X]

We know from archeology and history that French IA, ie Gaul, was present in Britain. Much of southern England was occupied by “Belgic” tribes, and the Parisi tribe in Yorkshire was thought to have originated in the Paris area. Some tribal names e.g Atrebates are found on both sides of the Channel. There are many other examples of Gauls in Britain

Of course, but on this chart those people would form part of the British IA and English EMA components. Plus it just doesn't add up, if we are looking at a 75% replacement, how can areas like East Anglia which we know were some of the most heavily colonised by Anglo-Saxons, then have what looks like 35 or 40% French IA surviving from the pre-Roman period. Has to be a later introduction?

Screenshot_20220625-125120_copy_746x408.png

[V-X]

Al Murray Comedy Material.png
Just trying to put together a rough tally of what English genetic history based on developments in the last few years. There hasn't to my knowledge been any paper on the genetic effects of Roman colonisation so it would potentially have to be adjusted for that. Does this add up?