Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

[Garimund]

Think I figured out what I was missing.
The map on left is showing pre 400 AD CNE=Anglo Saxon ancestry origins, not British Isles ancestry origins.

This would imply a genetic similarity between the traditional home of the Anglo Saxons and folks from Poland, Ukraine, and Czechoslovakia.

Edit jonvikW is saying something similar in post 384.

So map on left isn’t telling us anything about pre 400 ad immigrates to Britain.

This touches on my own Y-line journey. My surname is of Old English origin, part of a large colonial planter family. My colonial ancestor and his father were both ship captains and were some of the driving forces behind the English colonies. In the domesday book, near where my family is said to originate near Sussex, you find a Landholder of my namesake, serving the house of Godwin. Interestingly enough, in ‘Origins of the Anglo-Saxon Race’ that came out long ago, my surname is said to be a namesake for Wendish settlers who accompanied the Anglo-Saxons to England, and behold, I sit on an ancestral branch with Tomenable.

[Straboo]

Germanics in Slovakia post date Bastarnae/Jastorf in Poland by at least 200-300 years. Poprad would have to be late/post Puchov culture

[V-X]

Before 800bc? So when does the iron age begin in england?

Approx 800 BC or shortly after

So your saying there was no flow at all from 800 to 200 bc across the channel? That does not sound realistic

That's what the paper said, see page 10 of this PDF in particular:
https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...ipt_2021_3.pdf

A big change in the Late bronze age, then relatively little after that right up to the roman conquest. All those arrivals 1200-800 BC would be included in the British IA category, and there weren't enough arrivals in the iron age to account for those French IA figures.

THis is what they say:
Our sampling from western France and Belgium
is poor, and it is possible that EEF ancestry proportions there were
similar to Britain, so we cannot rule out migration from this region in
the IA. Nevertheless, our results are consistent with reduced migration
from continental Europe and suggest a substantial degree of genetic
isolation of Britain from much of continental Europe during the IA

[Finn]

Finn, you make it out as if the previous late lusatian/Pomeranian culture just vanished of the face of the earth with no trace (which is total you know what)

Any post about Jastorf-Bastarnae in the 3rd century BC Poland need to be contrasted with maps that show indicators of native, non germanic local peoples for the iron age Poland.

The Jastorf migrants went through greater Poland, west to east, and then headed south east via the Bug river. Remaining Jastorf in central poland were swallowed up by early heavily celtic influenced Preworsk culture.

Have a look at this Straboo:



https://www.academia.edu/37471966/It..._300_BC_10_AD_

[MitchellSince1893]

Of course, but on this chart those people would form part of the British IA and English EMA components. Plus it just doesn't add up, if we are looking at a 75% replacement, how can areas like East Anglia which we know were some of the most heavily colonised by Anglo-Saxons, then have what looks like 35 or 40% French IA surviving from the pre-Roman period. Has to be a later introduction?

Attachment 50230

I took those bar charts and aligned them North to South, with West/Central England on the Left and Eastern England on the Right, so that each row roughly corresponds to the same latitude.


As one heads south, England IA generally declines to its lowest point in the Leicester, Northampton, Norfolk, Suffolk area; but does make a slight rebound in Oxford and along the Channel.

The French IA seems to reach it's max at roughly the Leicester, Northampton, Norfolk, Suffolk area; with less French IA to the north and south.

[jadegreg]

V-X. I think we'll have to wait for the paper before we can say what is going on. JonikW was very kind to give us his coverage of the material, however, in these sort of talks quite a lot of detail can be left out, particularly with reference to the nitty-gritty of it all, i.e. sample populations, analytical methods etc, and what is represented is 'their' take on the data. It may well pass muster, or their could be a number of flaws, which lead to other possible interpretations of the data. We'll have to wait, see and judge for ourselves.

As for the Patterson Paper, I thought that 'there was no more change', was in reference to the rest of the Iron Age. It doesn't preclude post IA changes. To be fair I'd like to see a PCA of all of those IA individuals, as I suspect there was a continuous shift/turnover beyond the early IA, it's just hidden within their analysis of the 3 European components (Steppe, EEF and WHG). Of course it may be difficult to make fair comparison....given the different archaeological geographies of the different time periods

[Finn]

Germanics in Slovakia post date Bastarnae/Jastorf in Poland by at least 200-300 years. Poprad would have to be late/post Puchov culture

It's imo not so much about the labeling but about the Germanic origin in relationship with the migration to England....

[jadegreg]

I took those bar charts and aligned them North to South, with West/Central England on the Left and Eastern England on the Right, so that each row roughly corresponds to the same latitude.

You really are a master of the digital image. Thanks.

[V-X]

I think we'll have to wait for the paper before we can say what is going on

No doubt about that.

The French IA seems to reach it's max at roughly the Leicester, Northampton, Norfolk, Suffolk

Hmmmmm
20161224_xmm983.png

[Cartographer]

My issue with the notion that IA France = British survival is that, based on the "ancestry decomposition" maps that JonikW posted, and as V-X has already noted, the geneticists were able to model all of the Anglo-Saxon era samples as a two-way mixture between the NW European migrants and the IA British population. This includes some grave sites in Cornwall, Sussex and what appears to be Dorset which do seem to have been largely composed of Britons who match the IA British profile. Given how many early AS grave sites were tested, in the areas where the French component is strongly evident in the present day, I just don't see where it could have been hiding. Hopefully at least some of this will be discussed in the actual paper.

Also, now I really want to see studies exploring the effects of the Roman era, the migrations of the Franks & Alemanni, and even the Norman settlement on French people today.