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Thread: Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

  1. #3451
    Registered Users
    Los Angeles, California; Grand River, Ontario
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152 > L2 > L20
    mtDNA (M)
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-Z284 > Y64062
    mtDNA (P)

    Canada United States of America California Republic United Kingdom Germany South Africa
    MitchellSince1893 and Dewsloth:

    Indeed, when one is devoted to a pastime such as the one that consumes so many of us, wait times seem interminable. However, I have been "in the game" since 2000 (deCODEme) and my FTDNA number is 1336, and all I could do until the year 2020 was create hypotheses. Since my Y line is from the coastal area of East Anglia surrounded by Scandinavian village names, and my ancestors in Medieval times were wealthy shipbuilders with a Scandinavian surname Falke / Falck, I hypothesized that they arrived in England with the Danish Viking "Great Army". My haplogroup being a R-U152 subclade seemed at the time to militate against the hypothesis, but none the less I created the "Cimbri hypothesis" to explain the "Alpine - Celtic" haplogroup being in Denmark. Then in 2020, only two years ago, everything changed.

    The Margaryan study of Viking Era genomes showed via ancient DNA testing that R-L20/S144 was found in those times in at least 3 places in Denmark. Then in 2022 the Gretzinger Anglo-Saxon study showed that the only R-U152 and subclades individual was R-L20/S144 from a 5th Century cemetery on the Sussex coast between two established Jute areas (Kent and Hampshire), and in a Jute "treaty settlement" area between the Ouse and Cuckmere Rivers (Cunliffe, 1997). This individual and I and one other from an unknown location were the only ones who are R-L20/S144 > BY61198. The MRCA was estimated as 50 AD. So now I can focus on Jutland and of course the results of the above bog burial site will be of interest (most burials of the time were cremation), although the acidic conditions may have destroyed all the DNA from even the petrous bone and teeth.

    The point is, luck plays a big role and within a 2 year period I have been blessed with an huge incremental awareness of probable Y line origins. With my maternal uncle (Shetland Y origins) it is even more dramatic - although the Y-STR data had shown that the western Norway fjords were the likely points of origin. Big Y showed that his R1a-Z284 lineage Y64062 was shared with only one Norwegian MRCA circa 800 AD, and back to YP4345 shared with 5 Norway, 4 Ireland and 4 Scotland with MCRA circa 600 AD and so on. The closest ancient DNA match was to an individual from Deerness, Orkney with MRCA circa 600 AD part of the "Viking Orkney" group. So I don't think that it gets much better than that - and in two years. So the point is that over the next two years with the rate at which these studies were being published, hopefully the answer could be relatively close. Being a "Baby Boomer" my days are numbered so perhaps I will learn even more, but what is already "in the can" is quite sufficient. Luck plays such a big role for us genetic genealogists in this field - who would have figured that the only Anglo-Saxon R-U152 from the Gretzinger study would match my very rare BY61198 - fortune smiled and for that and so much more I am very thankful.
    Last edited by falconson1; 11-26-2022 at 08:36 PM.
    Big Y: L20 > BY61198. One modern match country of origin is not recorded. An ancient DNA match is sample I14538 from a 5th century Jutish Anglo-Saxon burial ground in Rookery Hill, Bishopstone, Sussex, England.
    Avatar: Great great grandfather Sgt. Charles Faux, wife Mary Ann (Williams) Faux born in South Africa, and great grandfather Robert Faux. Painting entitled "Autumn" by Frederick Sandys (1860) hanging in the art gallery at Norwich Castle Museum. I have his three war medals.

  2. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to falconson1 For This Useful Post:

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  3. #3452
    Gold Class Member
    80% Brit/Irish, 19% N Eur
    aDNA Match (1st)
    GRO010 Groningen, Netherlands 0.0199
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    HAD009 Cambridgeshire 0.0205
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    SWG008 Schleswig-Holstein 0.0213
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    England Scotland Wales Germany Palatinate Ireland Leinster Sweden Finns
    Luck is indeed a major factor. Tested my dad at FTDNA in 2012, and only made incremental progress until some fellow in New Zealand took an test in April 2021. I tried but never actually communicated with this match, but 6 months later his test turned out to be the key in solving a 128 year old Patrilineal mystery.

    So you never know when lightning will strike.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 11-27-2022 at 05:15 PM.
    Y dna continued: Z142>Z150>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    80% Brit/Ir-ish
    35% English/14% Welsh/15% Scot/11% Ulster Scot/5% Irish
    14% German/3% Scandi-Finn/2% French & Dutch/1% India

    Be more concerned about seeking the truth than winning an argument.

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  5. #3453
    Gold Class Member
    North Sea/Irish Sea
    aDNA Match (1st)
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    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    Do we know if there were Mithras cult burial practices with horses, or if they were Roman-style cremations?

    Both Driffield Terrace and Klosterneuburg (and also Hiddestorf) were types of Horse burials.
    I believe a few graves from the Roman empire have been speculatively linked to followers of Mithras through site association or tombstone motif, but it's typically impossible to say which mystery cult or cults may have been favoured by the deceased given the generic nature of funerary inscriptions in the period.

    The tombstone of Flavinus, a cavalryman buried near Hadrian's Wall, is a good example of that, where we see the deceased riding a horse on his stone but can't say anything about his religious allegiances:

    Line 1: To the spirits of the departed -FLAVINVS
    Line 2: Cavalryman of PETR regiment, Standard Bearer
    Line 3: of troop of CANDIDA died at 25 years
    Line 4: after 7 years of service-is buried here

    I can't recall any specifically Mithras-linked burials in Britain but while the horse isn't a key part of his myth or worship, Mithras is occasionally depicted riding a horse. His army-focused following must also have included a good number of cavalrymen of the likes of Flavinus, so it's at least possible that some of the burials you mention included followers of that god. Frustratingly, we're just unable to say either way with the evidence we have.
    Recent tree: mainly West Country England and Southeast Wales, with several neighbouring regions and countries in the last few centuries
    Y line: Peak District, c.1300. Swedish IA/VA matches; last = 711AD YFull, 902AD FTDNA
    mtDNA: Llanvihangel Pont-y-moile, 1825
    Mother's Y: Llanvair Discoed, 1770
    Avatar: Welsh Borders hillfort, 1980s

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