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Thread: Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

  1. #3651
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roslav View Post
    Well I admit the quality is substandard, however the crucial bits are plain visible! Enough to warrant a very cautious anthropometric verdict!
    Well I can assure you lepto doesn't necessarily means overall gracile

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roslav View Post
    Ha that's cool! Thanks! Quite clearly ovoid, mesocephalic and evidently leptoprosopic if repositioned properly. And those eyesockets... missing, but not too rectangular. A rather gracile specimen overall! Not the typical, bulky Anglo-Saxon one would imagine ;-)
    Hardly gracile with those massive browridges and very deep nasion depression. Overall seems quite typical for Anglo-Saxons, most of whom looked like overgrown, coarser "Nordics" (Nordic in the old, anthropological sense).

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    OK, ok! I was taking the mick a little bit, don't get overexcited ;p As for the browridges - they are not really "massive", come on! Simply present, but then one can hardly find a male skull with no browridges at all... Same goes for nasion - find me a skull without the frontonasal suture lying in a depression, in relation to supraorbital ridges. It's a natural, anatomical feature. One would have to measure the depression first. Otherwise who cares what the dude looked like lol!

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    PS. I have a high Saxon ancestry but lepto (my case: facial index is: 88.1 that's leptoprosopic)) doesn't means no overall euhm robust features

    Anthropometrics is very serious business... One would need to inspect you first!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roslav View Post

    and this one:

    Attachment 53614
    Here is a similar U152 map from Phylogeographer (not perfect, I know!):


    U152 Phylo.png

    There seems to be an interesting concentration in Somerset, Cumbria, Scottish Lowlands, Cork (this holds for several U152 subclades), and to a lesser degree East Anglia.

    Interestingly, this sizeable West Country cluster is gone when we go down to R-L2:

    L2 Phylo.png

    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Years ago I had thought maybe the same path for my line, but according to FTDNA Wilder/Shields part ways with Gay at roughly 500CE. Shields and Wilder part ways at 900CE. The Gays think they are Welsh but the heat map shows Devon for that surname and Wilder is concentrated around Berkshire. I then thought my line might be a hold over from the Iron Age, but this area is also in what would end up being Wessex, settled by the Saxon Pirates with their very large, well you know, knives, at least according to Finn.
    I think as long as there are subclades like this one under CTS4065:

    Attachment 53619

    An Anglo-Saxon (or Frankish, or Norman?) contribution for some of the British U152 simply cannot be excluded. Especially for any of those old lineages with long unbroken, solid SNP blocks extending into Bronze Age or 2000 BC and beyond.
    Last edited by Roslav; 01-26-2023 at 08:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roslav View Post


    Anthropometrics is very serious business... One would need to inspect you first!

    Finn Folcwalding the Friso-Saxon king is ready for inspection:



    (with thanks to my heritage)

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    Quote Originally Posted by New_Englander View Post
    Danelaw could be a factor as well. And wouldnít Essex be Saxon?

    Are the percentages in these maps the percentage of testers overall who belong to either R-U106 or I1 per county, or the percentage of R-U106 or I1 testers who come from (or more likely trace their lineage to) each county?
    I think you're right that the Danelaw will be a smallish but still significant factor. Many of the "Danes" must also have come from families where some members had left for the Anglian areas of England centuries before, so I suppose the general picture holds good in any case. My best guess is that my Y ancestor was among them despite my obsession with the Anglo-Saxon settlements.

    I think it's safe to assume that Essex was one of the main areas where people who identified with the two main groupings, Angle and Saxon, mixed and intermarried, regardless of its name. Its geographical position between the heartlands of the two identities will have facilitated that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Finn Folcwalding the Friso-Saxon king is ready for inspection:



    (with thanks to my heritage)
    King Finn... and W‚ldpyk the Anglian warlord! Spot the differences


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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Finn Folcwalding the Friso-Saxon king is ready for inspection:



    (with thanks to my heritage)
    Very convincing. You could have made a formidable yet beneficent warlord back in the day. You missed your natural vocation by being born so late Finn.
    Recent tree: mainly West Country England and Southeast Wales, with several neighbouring regions and countries in the last few centuries
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    Quote Originally Posted by W‚ldpykjong View Post
    King Finn... and W‚ldpyk the Anglian warlord! Spot the differences

    You look like you could easily have carved a lucrative territory out for yourself W‚ldpyk when others were leaving for England. These are great images.
    Recent tree: mainly West Country England and Southeast Wales, with several neighbouring regions and countries in the last few centuries
    Y line: Peak District, c.1300. Swedish IA/VA matches; last = 711AD YFull, 834AD FTDNA
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    Mother's Y: Llanvair Discoed, 1770
    Avatar: Welsh Borders hillfort, 1980s

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    You look like you could easily have carved a lucrative territory out for yourself W‚ldpyk when others were leaving for England. These are great images.
    I've uploaded some pictures for a laugh on MyHeritage. Finn joined the party soon afterwards

    Quote Originally Posted by Roslav View Post
    OK, ok! I was taking the mick a little bit, don't get overexcited ;p As for the browridges - they are not really "massive", come on! Simply present, but then one can hardly find a male skull with no browridges at all... Same goes for nasion - find me a skull without the frontonasal suture lying in a depression, in relation to supraorbital ridges. It's a natural, anatomical feature. One would have to measure the depression first. Otherwise who cares what the dude looked like lol!
    Prominent brow ridge for an Anglo-Saxon Roslav? Hahaha
    Last edited by W‚ldpykjong; 01-26-2023 at 09:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roslav View Post
    Ha that's cool! Thanks! Quite clearly ovoid, mesocephalic and evidently leptoprosopic if repositioned properly. And those eyesockets... missing, but not too rectangular. A rather gracile specimen overall! Not the typical, bulky Anglo-Saxon one would imagine ;-)





    There are multiple old subclades under U152, however the issue with many of those subclades is this:

    Attachment 53611


    Attachment 53612

    1000, 2000, even 3000 years without much branching. Hard to say what sort of routes did those Y-chromosomes undertake. Certainly most of the time they did not stray too far away from the source point since quite obviously U152 seems frequent in the upper to middle Danube&Rhine basin, but much less so on the European extremeties - Finland, Russia, Ukraine on one hand. But Iceland, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Portugal and Spain on the other as well.

    Were all these subclades propagated by waves of Proto-Celtic Halstatt/LaTene migrations? Probably a lot, most of them. But then we are often talking 2000-1500 BC here. Some of them could travel in other directions and enter other populations.

    It's hard not to see correlation between this map:

    Attachment 53613

    and this one:

    Attachment 53614
    I found the Osteological Report on Sed020/S1016:

    http://pauldocherty.com/project/an-osteological-report/

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