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Thread: Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    You can see a lecture by Hines below.

    The Anglo Saxon Period: Histories and Metahistory:

    Sad he had to spend so much time focused on present day political issues with the term "Anglo-Saxon" instead of actual discussion of archaeology.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 01-09-2022 at 03:28 AM.
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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Sounds intriguing. What are those sources and who do they name? Don't doubt you, just don't remember coming across a Slav in an English Early Medieval context. I've seen some Victorian writers claim western Slavic movements among the Anglo-Saxons, but can only think of Borislav in the Jomsvikings saga and so on regarding later slightly more western Viking links with the Wends, which doesn't include appearances in England.
    For example "Gesta Danorum" by Saxo Grammaticus mentions this (it is a Danish source):

    "Saxo, in his ‘Danish History’ gives an account of the reign of Harald Bluetooth. He reports that the king, towards the end of his rule and in a period contemporary with the Trelleborg fortresses, based his power on an army composed of ‘Danes and Slavs’. According to a twelfth-century chronicler, the so-called ‘law of the Kings’, retainers became necessary because of the heterogeneous ethnic composition of the royal retinue at the beginning of the eleventh century."

    Then also let's not forget that Cnut the Great was in terms of ancestry and autosomally a Slavic-Germanic mix. He had much of Slavic admixture (wife of Harold Bluetooth, mother of Svein Forkbeard, was Slavic - Tofa, daughter of duke Mstivoy of the Obotrites; and later the wife of Svein Forkbeard and the mother of Cnut the Great was also Slavic - Swietoslava, daughter of Mieszko I [Mieshko I] of Poland). Cnut had alliances with Polabian Obodrites and with Poles.

    German bishop, Thietmar of Merseburg, in his chronicle wrote this about Cnut's ancestry:

    "Because nobody is able to comprehend either the curiosities of Denmark, which are unfolded in their prodigious form by nature herself, or the cruel deeds of its people, I will omit them and will only devote a few words to that lizard's brood, that is to the sons of the said Svein, the persecutor. They were born to him by a daughter of duke Mieszko [of Poland] and sister of his son and successor Boleslaw."

    And then there is Orderic Vitalis, who AFAIK mentioned Poles and Lutici as Danish allies:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutici

    This thesis claims that those were Poles and Lithuanians (maybe a mistake in the thesis?):

    https://cris.winchester.ac.uk/ws/por..._June_2018.pdf



    Lutici or Litvins? The former are rather obscure, less known and have a similar name.

    The Lutici were also Pagan at that time, and lived much closer to Denmark.

    In Polish-language books/articles it is claimed that Orderic Vitalis mentioned the Lutici.

    (of course king of Denmark did not conquer Lithuanians or Lutici, but he had an alliance with Lutici)
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-09-2022 at 11:20 AM.

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  5. #103
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    Here the Lutici (Lutitians) are mentioned:

    https://pau.krakow.pl/Antemurale/tom...e_XXV_1981.pdf


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  7. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    For example "Gesta Danorum" by Saxo Grammaticus mentions this (it is a Danish source):

    "Saxo, in his ‘Danish History’ gives an account of the reign of Harald Bluetooth. He reports that the king, towards the end of his rule and in a period contemporary with the Trelleborg fortresses, based his power on an army composed of ‘Danes and Slavs’. According to a twelfth-century chronicler, the so-called ‘law of the Kings’, retainers became necessary because of the heterogeneous ethnic composition of the royal retinue at the beginning of the eleventh century."
    Indeed. Bluetooth's army recruited a lot of foreigners from other parts of Scandinavia and the Slavic areas that were under Danish influence:
    https://www.academia.edu/11961724/Wh...leborg_Denmark

    But I guess it's pretty well-known that the Danish realm exceeded beyond what's now modern day-Denmark, being the closest thing to a unified South Scandinavian force at the time, and you have to keep that in mind when coming across the ethnonym in historical sources.

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  9. #105
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    I found also this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Canterbury

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorkell_the_Tall - he was a Jomsviking



    Source:

    A. Gaca, "Baltic Slavs fighting at sea from the ninth to twelfth century..."

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  11. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I found also this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Canterbury

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorkell_the_Tall - he was a Jomsviking



    Source:

    A. Gaca, "Baltic Slavs fighting at sea from the ninth to twelfth century..."
    Thanks for these links and your comprehensive rundown. I'd completely forgotten about Cnut despite reading a biography recently. What R1a subclades might be most relevant here? I know shamefully little about that haplogroup but hope some turns up in the paper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    You can see a lecture by Hines below.

    The Anglo Saxon Period: Histories and Metahistory:

    Thanks again for the link JMcB. That was a wonderfully wide-ranging talk with a lot of gems along the way (not least on the linguistics behind the name of the Angles and their homeland). If anyone doesn’t want to listen to the whole thing but would be interested in a brief rundown of one of the big issues, Hines’ comments from 59.55 during the Q&A section perfectly sum up what dress accessories might tell us about geographical identities within England and links with the continent and Scandinavia.

    The point about the cline of differentiation between the Anglian core in East Anglia and the Saxon core in the upper Thames valley and beyond is particularly salient given we’re about to get the aDNA paper. As we're all hoping, a good analysis might potentially be able to illuminate those movements and patterns of settlement to some degree, whether through Y haplogroups or on an autosomal level. Fingers crossed anyway...
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  15. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Sad he had to spend so much time focused on present day political issues with the term "Anglo-Saxon" instead of actual discussion of archaeology.
    I disagree because Hines has imo a right view on this matter or as he called some take things are used out of their context, and use it as modern kind of tokens. It's good he has an eye for this, he mentions even the game world! Seen the age of the man and -pardon me- the quit old english context it's not that obvious!

    Honestly that kind of stuff is bothersome....for a serious interest. I'm interested in my ancestry and I don't want to be associated with a bunch of screwballs.
    Last edited by Finn; 01-09-2022 at 01:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I disagree because Hines has imo a right view on this matter or as he called some take things are used out of their context, and use it as modern kind of tokens. It's good he has an eye for this, he mentions even the game world! Seen the age of the man and -pardon me- the quit old english context it's not that obvious!

    Honestly that kind of stuff is bothersome....for a serious interest. I'm interested in my ancestry and I don't want to be associated with a bunch of screwballs.
    I think we're all in accord here though. It's sad that he had to spend so much time on it, but he had to exactly because of those screwballs. So he was right to do it but it's a shame that extremists have made it necessary. His point about the distinction between Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-Scandinavian as one of the reasons for favouring AS over Early Medieval English was good too.
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  19. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I think we're all in accord here though. It's sad that he had to spend so much time on it, but he had to exactly because of those screwballs. So he was right to do it but it's a shame that extremists have made it necessary. His point about the distinction between Anglo-Saxon and Anglo-Scandinavian as one of the reasons for favouring AS over Early Medieval English was good too.
    Totally agree and Anglo-Saxons stays Anglo-Saxon, now matter how some "hijacked" it.
    Last edited by Finn; 01-09-2022 at 03:15 PM.

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