Page 2 of 346 FirstFirst 12341252102 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 3453

Thread: Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

  1. #11
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,835
    Sex
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Z198 (DF27)
    mtDNA (M)
    T2B-T152C

    England Scotland Austrian Empire Canada Quebec Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I think this is what you're after. It was posted on Anthrogenica last year.

    THE ANGLO-SAXON MIGRATION AND FORMATION OF THE EARLY ENGLISH GENE POOL
    Abstract author(s): Gretzinger, Joscha (Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History) - Altena, Eveline (Leiden Uni-versity Medical Center, University of Leiden) - Papac, Luka (Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History) - Krause, Johannes (Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History; Faculty of Biosciences, University of Jena) - Sayer, Duncan (School of Forensic and Applied Sciences, University of Central Lancashire) - Schiffels, Stephan (Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History)
    A series of migrations and accompanied cultural changes has formed the peoples of Britain and still represents the foundations of the English national identity. For the most prominent of these, the Anglo-Saxon migration, the traditional view, resting upon historical sources and derived concepts of ethnic and national origins from the 19th century, outlined that the indigenous Romanised British population was forcibly replaced by invading Germanic tribes, starting in the 5th century AD. However, to which extent this historic event coincided with factual immigration that affected the genetic composition of the British population was focus of generations of scientific and social controversy. To better understand this key period, we have so far generated genome-wide sequences from 80 individuals from eight cemeteries in East and South England. We combined this data with previously published genome-wide data to a total dataset of more than 200 ancient British genomes spanning from the Early Bronze Age to the Early Middle Ages, allowing us to investigate shifts and affinities in British fine-scale population structure during this phase of transformation. Here we present two preliminary results: First, we detect a substantial increase in continental Northern European ancestry akin to the extant Danish and Northern German populations during the Early Anglo-Saxon period, replacing approximately 80% of the indigenous British ancestry during that time period. Second, we nevertheless highlight the continuous presence of ancestry identified in Pre-Saxon Iron Age and Roman individuals during the Early and Middle Anglo-Saxon period, originating in the Early British Bronze Age and closely resembling present-day Celtic-speaking populations from Ireland and Scotland. Therefore, our study suggests that the early English population was the outcome of long-term ethnogenetic processes in which the acculturation and assimilation of native Britons into the immigrating Anglo-Saxon society played a key role.
    One potential problem I see here is the suggestion that the modern British gene pool is the result of the A/S who came in and replaced 80%, then the remaining 20% IA population combined with that and presto, we have modern English people. It's a shame that they won't continue the study into the middle ages. Now, one thing that stands out to me in light of the recent IA paper is that the later Iron Age Britons are perhaps similar to the Northern French, no? So if it looks like the modern result is Anglo-Saxons and Danes plus Iron Age Britons, couldn't it also be A/S + Danes and later incoming people from Northern France? And perhaps, given we know that many people did migrate to England from France and the nearby continent, wouldn't this be the more plausible scenario?

    I know that people generally want to believe they are holdovers from more ancient populations tied to a certain geographic location, but I believe it was Reich who said that the pattern we generally see is one of gradual population replacements.
    Flags represent known or paper trail ancestry from greatest to least:
    England, Scotland, Austro-Hungarian Empire, (Galicia Poland) French-Canadian, and Dutch American settlers.

  2. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to sktibo For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-06-2022),  Cunobelinus_T (01-05-2022),  Garimund (01-05-2022),  jadegreg (01-16-2022),  JMcB (01-05-2022),  JonikW (01-05-2022),  Pylsteen (01-05-2022)

  3. #12
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,339
    Sex
    Location
    Kent
    Ethnicity
    North Sea/Irish Sea
    Nationality
    British
    aDNA Match (1st)
    Eng.VA:VK173
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    Eng.MIA:I14860
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    Eng.LIA:I22062
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1 Z140+ FT354407+
    mtDNA (M)
    V78
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b L21+ BY11922+
    mtDNA (P)
    J1c2l

    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    One potential problem I see here is the suggestion that the modern British gene pool is the result of the A/S who came in and replaced 80%, then the remaining 20% IA population combined with that and presto, we have modern English people. It's a shame that they won't continue the study into the middle ages. Now, one thing that stands out to me in light of the recent IA paper is that the later Iron Age Britons are perhaps similar to the Northern French, no? So if it looks like the modern result is Anglo-Saxons and Danes plus Iron Age Britons, couldn't it also be A/S + Danes and later incoming people from Northern France? And perhaps, given we know that many people did migrate to England from France and the nearby continent, wouldn't this be the more plausible scenario?

    I know that people generally want to believe they are holdovers from more ancient populations tied to a certain geographic location, but I believe it was Reich who said that the pattern we generally see is one of gradual population replacements.
    I agree it would be worthwhile pursuing a study beyond the Early Medieval period. The Huguenots in London and elsewhere and the Flemish weavers earlier (including in Wales) have certainly added something to the British gene pool since 1066. I've found several unexpected continental ancestors in my own tree, as I've mentioned before, including a five times great grandfather from Franconia. French-derived surnames are not uncommon here in particular, thanks to the Huguenots. Personally I'd guess recent continental input at considerably below 5 percent of the total if I had to put money on it.

  4. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to JonikW For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-06-2022),  Anglecynn (01-05-2022),  Bygdedweller (01-05-2022),  Cascio (01-05-2022),  Chnodomar (01-06-2022),  Cunobelinus_T (01-05-2022),  Dewsloth (01-05-2022),  Garimund (01-05-2022),  jadegreg (01-16-2022),  JMcB (01-05-2022),  Pylsteen (01-05-2022),  sktibo (01-05-2022),  timberwolf (01-05-2022)

  5. #13
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,835
    Sex
    Nationality
    Canadian
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-Z198 (DF27)
    mtDNA (M)
    T2B-T152C

    England Scotland Austrian Empire Canada Quebec Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I agree it would be worthwhile pursuing a study beyond the Early Medieval period. The Huguenots in London and elsewhere and the Flemish weavers earlier (including in Wales) have certainly added something to the British gene pool since 1066. I've found several unexpected continental ancestors in my own tree, as I've mentioned before, including a five times great grandfather from Franconia. French-derived surnames are not uncommon here in particular, thanks to the Huguenots. Personally I'd guess recent continental input at considerably below 5 percent of the total if I had to put money on it.
    Absolutely, and since these continental medieval migrants were much more recent additions to the gene pool, they probably punch above their weight in terms of how much they have contributed to the modern situation.

    I'm guessing by recent continental input, you mean the past 200 years.
    Flags represent known or paper trail ancestry from greatest to least:
    England, Scotland, Austro-Hungarian Empire, (Galicia Poland) French-Canadian, and Dutch American settlers.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sktibo For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (01-05-2022),  JonikW (01-05-2022)

  7. #14
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,339
    Sex
    Location
    Kent
    Ethnicity
    North Sea/Irish Sea
    Nationality
    British
    aDNA Match (1st)
    Eng.VA:VK173
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    Eng.MIA:I14860
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    Eng.LIA:I22062
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1 Z140+ FT354407+
    mtDNA (M)
    V78
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b L21+ BY11922+
    mtDNA (P)
    J1c2l

    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    Absolutely, and since these continental medieval migrants were much more recent additions to the gene pool, they probably punch above their weight in terms of how much they have contributed to the modern situation.

    I'm guessing by recent continental input, you mean the past 200 years.
    I'd personally put recent at post Medieval for this purpose, given the considerable numbers of Protestant refugees, so Tudor period onwards. But the Medieval Flemish incomers must have left some kind of mark.

    ADD: Given the amount of work I've done on some of them, I also suspect that some of our autosomal matches including around 7cM on the big testing sites may date back that far (added this after the thanks from JMcB in case he disagrees but appears not to here!).
    Last edited by JonikW; 01-05-2022 at 09:49 PM.
    Recent tree: mainly West Country England and Southeast Wales, with several neighbouring regions and countries in the last few centuries
    Y line: Peak District, c.1300. Swedish IA/VA matches; last = 711AD YFull, 902AD FTDNA
    mtDNA: Llanvihangel Pont-y-moile, 1825
    Mother's Y: Llanvair Discoed, 1770
    Avatar: Welsh Borders hillfort, 1980s

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to JonikW For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (01-05-2022)

  9. #15
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,699
    Sex
    Location
    Poland, Wielkopolska
    Ethnicity
    Polish (Wielkopolans)
    Nationality
    Polish
    aDNA Match (1st)
    VK473
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    Av1
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    KRA002
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L617 Kapuscinski
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029 Meller

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union Polish–LithuanianCommonwealth
    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    (...) Now, one thing that stands out to me in light of the recent IA paper is that the later Iron Age Britons are perhaps similar to the Northern French, no? So if it looks like the modern result is Anglo-Saxons and Danes plus Iron Age Britons, couldn't it also be A/S + Danes and later incoming people from Northern France? And perhaps, given we know that many people did migrate to England from France and the nearby continent, wouldn't this be the more plausible scenario?

    I know that people generally want to believe they are holdovers from more ancient populations tied to a certain geographic location, but I believe it was Reich who said that the pattern we generally see is one of gradual population replacements.
    G25 coordinates for 244 Iron Age England samples dated between 662 BC to 226 AD and with coverage at least higher than 23%:

    Code:
    England_IA_scaled,0.129338492,0.135044578,0.060620611,0.046992529,0.039762672,0.01626025,0.00253975,0.004535734,0.007257217,0.006301348,-0.004834508,0.006446139,-0.015074443,-0.014870615,0.021278619,0.006059992,-0.00585393,0.001578922,0.001392918,0.003102902,0.005560369,0.00365693,-0.002250283,0.005456922,-0.000703258
    It is a very good sample size (but authors of that last year's Anglo-Saxon study didn't yet have access to new Iron Age samples).

    Distance to: England_IA_scaled
    0.01082438 Welsh
    0.01229653 French_Brittany
    0.01271010 Orcadian
    0.01304576 English
    0.01324072 Scottish
    0.01461048 Irish
    0.01463715 English_Cornwall
    (...)

    ^^^
    Percent of Anglo-Saxon admixture should again be re-examined in another study, and these new IA samples should be used.

    Let me remind you that there are already several studies dealing with this subject, and they give contradictory percentages.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-05-2022 at 09:47 PM.

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     Andour (01-07-2022),  sheepslayer (08-22-2022),  Trelvern (10-07-2022),  xerxez (01-05-2022)

  11. #16
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,699
    Sex
    Location
    Poland, Wielkopolska
    Ethnicity
    Polish (Wielkopolans)
    Nationality
    Polish
    aDNA Match (1st)
    VK473
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    Av1
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    KRA002
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L617 Kapuscinski
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029 Meller

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union Polish–LithuanianCommonwealth
    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    One potential problem I see here is the suggestion that the modern British gene pool is the result of the A/S who came in and replaced 80%, then the remaining 20% IA population combined with that and presto, we have modern English people.
    The modern [meaning - 21st century] English are definitely not 80% Anglo-Saxon. If they were, they would cluster with Danes, and they don't (they are closer to their "Celtic neighbours"). Previous studies on the subject (which used modern English samples) already showed this. The authors of the study discussed here talk about Medieval English being 80% AS. To me it looks like a huge resurgence of Celtic British ancestry at some point, possibly even in recent centuries (for instance during the Industrial Revolution lots of people from Ireland, Wales, Cornwall and Scotland migrated into England to work in factories).

    But as I wrote above, I think they should again re-examine it, using the newly published 244 samples of England_IA.

    =====

    In this study for example (there are few more) only 38% (not 80%) of modern East English ancestry is Anglo-Saxon:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10408

    If Medieval English were 80% Anglo-Saxon then it means that the Anglo-Saxon DNA declined later down to 30-40%.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 01-05-2022 at 10:01 PM.

  12. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     Andour (01-07-2022),  Cascio (01-05-2022),  Dingus (06-03-2022),  jadegreg (01-16-2022),  Michał (01-06-2022),  Tigertim (02-07-2022),  Wâldpykjong (09-14-2022)

  13. #17
    Registered Users
    Posts
    644
    Sex
    Location
    49% Nord France, 18% Bretagne/Basse Normandie, 16% Pologne, 9% Allemagne/Alsace, 7% Hte Normandie
    Ethnicity
    French, Polish and German
    aDNA Match (1st)
    ITA_Collegno_MA:CL63
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK363
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    VK2020_DNK_Jutland_VA:VK329
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-M72
    mtDNA (M)
    H6a1a

    France Normandie France Bretagne Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    G25 coordinates for 244 Iron Age England samples dated between 662 BC to 226 AD and with coverage at least higher than 23%:

    Code:
    England_IA_scaled,0.129338492,0.135044578,0.060620611,0.046992529,0.039762672,0.01626025,0.00253975,0.004535734,0.007257217,0.006301348,-0.004834508,0.006446139,-0.015074443,-0.014870615,0.021278619,0.006059992,-0.00585393,0.001578922,0.001392918,0.003102902,0.005560369,0.00365693,-0.002250283,0.005456922,-0.000703258
    It is a very good sample size (but authors of that last year's Anglo-Saxon study didn't yet have access to new Iron Age samples).

    Distance to: England_IA_scaled
    0.01082438 Welsh
    0.01229653 French_Brittany
    0.01271010 Orcadian
    0.01304576 English
    0.01324072 Scottish
    0.01461048 Irish
    0.01463715 English_Cornwall
    (...)

    ^^^
    Percent of Anglo-Saxon admixture should again be re-examined in another study, and these new IA samples should be used.

    Let me remind you that there are already several studies dealing with this subject, and they give contradictory percentages.
    Thanks for this English IA average which can be modellized as follow with 2 populations :
    Target: •England_IA_scaled
    Distance: 0.0087% / 0.00008672 | R2P
    61.6 Irish
    38.4 Bell_Beaker_CZE_late

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to xerxez For This Useful Post:

     Andour (01-07-2022),  Tomenable (01-05-2022)

  15. #18
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,699
    Sex
    Location
    Poland, Wielkopolska
    Ethnicity
    Polish (Wielkopolans)
    Nationality
    Polish
    aDNA Match (1st)
    VK473
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    Av1
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    KRA002
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L617 Kapuscinski
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029 Meller

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union Polish–LithuanianCommonwealth
    Quote Originally Posted by xerxez View Post
    Thanks for this English IA average which can be modellized as follow with 2 populations :
    Target: •England_IA_scaled
    Distance: 0.0087% / 0.00008672 | R2P
    61.6 Irish
    38.4 Bell_Beaker_CZE_late
    The average was posted by one Italian user on another forum, he is also on AG but I forgot his username here.

    What if you try to model it with CZE_Hallstatt or CZE_La_Tene instead of Bell Beaker late?

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     xerxez (01-06-2022)

  17. #19
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,339
    Sex
    Location
    Kent
    Ethnicity
    North Sea/Irish Sea
    Nationality
    British
    aDNA Match (1st)
    Eng.VA:VK173
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    Eng.MIA:I14860
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    Eng.LIA:I22062
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1 Z140+ FT354407+
    mtDNA (M)
    V78
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b L21+ BY11922+
    mtDNA (P)
    J1c2l

    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The modern [meaning - 21st century] English are definitely not 80% Anglo-Saxon. If they were, they would cluster with Danes, and they don't (they are closer to their "Celtic neighbours").
    I think a lot depends on whether you believe in a considerable depopulation of the homelands with replacement by neighbouring peoples such as the Danes. There's some support for that in linguistics, pollen counts and archaeology.

    From "Angeln and the Angles" by John Hines: "I shall here attempt to review the simple question of what happened to the population in and around Angeln between the fourth and eighth centuries A.D. The archaeological and linguistic perspectives come into consideration in rather different ways. Archaeology has a greater role to play in straightforward historical reconstruction; linguistic questions come more to the fore when we consider the implications of that reconstruction. Both of these sources, however, seem to agree with each other in painting a picture that agrees very largely with Bede's report of total emigration from and the abandonment of the area."

    I have no wish to argue about it though and we won't have long to wait to finally find out more than anyone has known before.
    Last edited by JonikW; 01-05-2022 at 10:15 PM.
    Recent tree: mainly West Country England and Southeast Wales, with several neighbouring regions and countries in the last few centuries
    Y line: Peak District, c.1300. Swedish IA/VA matches; last = 711AD YFull, 902AD FTDNA
    mtDNA: Llanvihangel Pont-y-moile, 1825
    Mother's Y: Llanvair Discoed, 1770
    Avatar: Welsh Borders hillfort, 1980s

  18. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to JonikW For This Useful Post:

     jadegreg (01-16-2022),  JMcB (01-05-2022),  lehmannt (01-06-2022),  Trelvern (10-07-2022)

  19. #20
    Registered Users
    Posts
    7,699
    Sex
    Location
    Poland, Wielkopolska
    Ethnicity
    Polish (Wielkopolans)
    Nationality
    Polish
    aDNA Match (1st)
    VK473
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    Av1
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    KRA002
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-L617 Kapuscinski
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1a-L1029 Meller

    Poland Poland Pomerania European Union Polish–LithuanianCommonwealth
    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I think a lot depends on whether you believe in a considerable depopulation of the homelands with replacement by neighbouring peoples such as the Danes. There's some support for that in pollen counts and archaeology.
    OK if not with Danes, they would cluster with North Dutch and Northwest Germans (Lower Saxons).

    But the English are closer to their "Celtic neighbours" than to either North Germans or North Dutch.

    As for depopulation, it seems that nearly all of Europe suffered a considerable depopulation at that time (with or without replacements by other peoples). Maybe it was just an era of frequent famine, frequent disease, etc.

  20. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (01-05-2022),  JonikW (01-05-2022),  Trelvern (10-07-2022)

Page 2 of 346 FirstFirst 12341252102 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 149
    Last Post: 07-02-2022, 05:05 PM
  2. Anglo Saxon Haplogroups and Types
    By BillMC in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 09-18-2019, 05:23 PM
  3. Anglo-Saxon Tomb
    By spruithean in forum History (Medieval)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-10-2019, 02:42 AM
  4. Anglo Saxon DNA Study.
    By JohnHowellsTyrfro in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 76
    Last Post: 08-04-2018, 09:21 AM
  5. I1 from Anglo-Saxon
    By Jean M in forum I1-M253
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-19-2016, 08:52 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •