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Thread: Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

  1. #301
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    Well tomorrow try the non-Teams app URL and see if that will let you in.

    https://teams.microsoft.com/l/meetup...0f8f72ef%22%7d

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    I understand your point, although I think that mostly applies to the Americas than it does to Europe. I think it's ultimately unimportant whether people from say, Birmingham, are 40% or 80% Briton, what makes them distinct from other native English speakers, or other English in general, are their peculiarities such as Brummie accent/dialect and whatever traditions they have over there that I completely ignore.
    While I agree with you in a most general fashion pertaining to 'modern identities' (indeed some of my closest friends are those Brummies you describe, who are very proud of their community and heritage and identify as such), there are some of us who had no such strong 'local' identity where we grew up (i.e. London commuter belt), or indeed any community to speak of, others who spent their formative years moving from city to city, never settling anywhere for long periods of time, never being allowed to form that sense of community. Consequently, some of us Brits are like a ship adrift with no port to call their own, but we're still looking......

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  4. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadegreg View Post
    While I agree with you in a most general fashion pertaining to 'modern identities' (indeed some of my closest friends are those Brummies you describe, who are very proud of their community and heritage and identify as such), there are some of us who had no such strong 'local' identity where we grew up (i.e. London commuter belt), or indeed any community to speak of, others who spent their formative years moving from city to city, never settling anywhere for long periods of time, never being allowed to form that sense of community. Consequently, some of us Brits are like a ship adrift with no port to call their own, but we're still looking......
    Yes, and that's becoming increasingly common throughout the West, but let me ask you a question: how would knowing your "ancestral breakdown" (for lack of a better expression on my part) change that?
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  6. #304
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    In a general fashion, probably very little, especially if I was a grounded and sensible person.........but again I refer you to the 'mad cow'. Ancient DNA is like genetic crack. Once you start partaking, it's very hard to stop, and before you know it, it controls your life, it becomes your raison d'etre

    But, really as you say, it will not make much difference at all, it doesn't define you. Ancestral breakdowns are another one of life's many journeys to be enjoyed........maybe a little too obsessively in my case.
    Last edited by jadegreg; 06-24-2022 at 08:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jadegreg View Post
    In a general fashion, probably very little, especially if I was a grounded and sensible person.........but again I refer you to the 'mad cow'. Ancient DNA is like genetic crack. Once you start partaking, it's very hard to stop, and before you know it, it controls your life, it becomes your raison d'etre

    But, really as you say, it will not make much difference at all, it doesn't define you. Ancestral breakdowns are another one of life's many journeys to be enjoyed........maybe a little too obsessively in my case.
    If I may add, Greg, it's hard to quantify. It won't make a difference in our lives and yet it will. Maybe that is a testament to our madness, maybe it is the reality. But the fact that this stuff can mean so much to many of us even without it being tangible, that says something as well. Perhaps it says something about what it means to be human; how we define and identify ourselves. I can say that for myself, the true knowledge of my real "ancestral breakdown" would absolutely change my life: it would direct my interests and studies, how i spend my time, what drives me. My previous ideas of identity absolutely impacted my life in a major way, but the flip side is I've always been interested in identity, and that is because i didnt grow up with one. I began by chasing the stories of Irish ancestry which led me to do a degree in medieval studies, focus on Irish history. That led to genealogy, to a passion for Scottish history upon the discovery that i dont actually have Irish roots. So to understand something like that would be unbelievably transformative. Of course if not for the loss of identity due to Canadian "melting pot" ideology I probably would not have persued identity. But that's what happened. All of my grandparents and great grandparents relinquished their cultures in hope of creating something new, but all that was created was the absence of culture, identity, and community. It's kind of sad, isn't it? I do think it is more worthy than the persuit of material and economic gain though.

    This is more a response to Ruderico, I don't know if it is possible to really explain this, but I tried. I imagine to someone coming from a place of having identity in community language and place it won't make sense. Maybe this all sounds crazy - if so, please remember to keep your culture and identity going for future generations to avoid this.
    Flags represent known or paper trail ancestry from greatest to least:
    England, Scotland, Austro-Hungarian Empire, (Galicia Poland) French-Canadian, and Dutch American settlers.

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  10. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    The conference starts Friday evening, with the juicy aDNA stuff on Saturday. I've got all the links I need now and looking forward to it.
    Here are a few notes I’ve made so far from the Society for Medieval Archaeology’s annual conference today. The theme of the event is “Current Perspectives on Early Medieval Migration, Mobility and Material Culture”.

    I can only fully attend the aDNA events, which are coming up in the next few hours, with Session 2 this afternoon. I’ll start properly by attending this event, which has an associated paper that we discussed on this thread recently: “Isotopic evidence for a ‘long’ Migration Period in England: connectivity, gender, and regionalisation”, Sam Leggett. But those I’m most interested in are: “The Anglo-Saxon migration and formation of the early English gene pool”, Stefan Schiffels and Joscha Gretzinger; and “Early Anglo-Saxon cemeteries and the implications of new ancient DNA data”, Duncan Sayer.

    The events are chaired by Toby Martin of Oxford university and from what I’ve seen so far the questions and points raised by the expert audience are worth listening to in themselves.

    Here are a few brief things I caught by dipping into session 1 this morning.

    Starting with Emma Brownlee’s session on “Untangling ‘local and ‘non-local’ display in death”. These were the bullet point conclusions presented towards the end, based on isotopic analysis (I noted these down word for word):

    “Non-locals generally more poorly furnished
    True of both the sixth and seventh century
    True of both male and female burials
    Kent is an exception
    More migration - easier integration?”

    Summing up at the end, Brownlee stressed that Kent is different from the rest of England and shows links with Francia.

    The next session was Steven Rippon on “Natives and newcomers: how Saxon were the East Saxons?”

    This used distribution maps to look at the archaeological evidence for immigration in the 5th and 6th centuries, including metal detecting finds and excavated Grubenhaeuser. What Rippon found interesting was the gap in the distribution. There is a dearth of 5th and 6th century finds in Essex. This looks like a genuine gap in the Anglo-Saxon settlement, he says. There has been large-scale archaeological work in this region but it’s not finding the sites. Yet if you go to the Thameside sites in Essex they fairly regularly come across finds.

    Crucially there was no abandonment of agricultural land, which would have seen it return to woodland in 20 or 30 years. Rippon himself has seen woodland return in this timeframe in parts of Essex that were turned into country parks. There must have been pastoral farming then, and “a degree of continuity in use of the landscape”. In some cases Roman field boundaries are on the same orientation as Medieval ones. If woodland had replaced the Roman fields it would have destroyed the earthworks on the Roman field systems. So in short there’s quite a lot of landscape evidence for the British population surviving.

    A sub-Roman cemetery at Baldock in Hertfordshire should be a high priority for clever scientific analysis. It’s later than anything Roman and has “some odd artefacts” in it. These could be made by the British population. In many areas such simple globular vessels are found that are then called “Saxon” in excavation reports. These “simple pots” should be reappraised to think about who really made them.

    Summing up: We need to understand those gaps in the distribution. “I would argue that this is where our missing British population is probably holding out in this period,” said Rippon.

    During the audience questions at the end, it became even clearer from comments of the archaeologists who spoke that we are increasingly seeing a picture of Anglo-Saxon settlement that varies significantly by region.
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  12. #307
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    Thanks JonikW. Great summary.

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  14. #308
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    Here are some notes I made for the next session: “Isotopic evidence for a ‘long’ Migration Period in England: connectivity, gender, and regionalisation”, Sam Leggett (University of Edinburgh).

    This looked at oxygen isotopic signatures and strontium isotopic analysis (more expensive to carry out) and it was mostly in the pre-print that we discussed here recently. Once again, said Leggett, “Kent is odd”, including its northern signatures (perhaps from Scandinavia).

    These were the bullet points at the end:

    Fluctuating but constant migration into England in 1st millennium AD
    Gendered differences in mobility - exogamy/patrilocality
    Regional variation is key
    Multi-origin communities, with cultural integration

    Next up is “The Anglo-Saxon migration and formation of the early English gene pool”, Stefan Schiffels and Joscha Gretzinger.”...
    Recent tree: mainly West Country England and Southeast Wales, with several neighbouring regions and countries in the last few centuries
    Y line: Peak District, c.1300. Closest matches: Sweden; TMRCA 1,300 ybp (YFull)
    mtDNA: Llanvihangel Pont-y-moile, 1825
    Mother's Y: Llanvair Discoed, 1770
    Avatar: Welsh Borders hillfort, 1980s

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  16. #309
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    The first of the aDNA presentations now: “The Anglo-Saxon migration and formation of the early English gene pool”, Stefan Schiffels and Joscha Gretzinger.

    Gretzinger (speaking very quickly throughout) started by saying about 80 people have been working on this since 2018 (including Schiffels as a PhD student). Gretzinger started off by looking at earlier studies including POBI. Then he turned to their own work. This is a map of sites the study looked at to find out the true picture:

    Screenshot_20220625-123707_copy_1126x621.png


    England forms a cline between Wales and Scotlands and the Netherlands and Germany on a PCA. In the Bronze and Iron Age, England clusters with other Brits. But the 285 new samples sit with the northern Germans and Danes. The Early Medieval English are genetically closest related to northern Germans, Danes and Dutch. Most sites in England have majority ancestry from the Continent at this time.

    Y chromosomes: haplogroup I1 is the big development. Around 76 percent of the paternal ancestry in the study comes from the continent. They also arrive at a level of 76 percent using the autosomal data alone.

    Screenshot_20220625-124340_copy_1114x654.png

    Mitochondrial dna. Women were also involved in the migration.

    Where did the continental incomers come from?: Nearly exclusively Northern Germany and Denmark. There is a “nice cline from the northern Netherlands to southern Sweden”, but mainly concentrated northern Germany and Denmark.

    Impact of the migrations on the modern population: It’s not possible to model English as a simple two way mixture between the iron age population and northern Europeans. We think a better model for modern England involves a mixture between the IA Brits, early English and some French ancestry.

    A three-way admixture model for the present day population has to include French. French ancestry 43 per cent in east Anglia and also strong in Kent.

    Conclusions in bullet points:

    We detect 76 percent ancestry replacement during the Early Middle Ages in England
    We find no evidence for sex bias in the admixture process
    We identify Lower Saxony and Denmark as the most plausible geographic homeland of those immigrants.
    Admixture was heterogenous across England and follows an East to West cline
    Continental ancestry was later diluted by southwestern European ancestry.

    They now want to understand how this later French ancestry entered England (he mentioned David Reich is working with them).

    Points from the questions and answers at the end: they have 30 early Medieval and 10 Iron Age samples from the Netherlands (I’m not sure whether those all belong specifically to the study because he mentioned they don’t have English IA samples of their own). Norway was not sampled specifically for the study but it looks different from the key areas discussed here including Denmark. Samples were mostly taken by archaeologists. Next they need to sample the west of England more and be careful to avoid bias of sites. They admit that “one of the major issues” is that they have is that they don’t have Roman samples from Britain. But this large-scale change that we see in the Early Medieval Period in England is NOT Roman Period”. They know this from studies that they have access to but that are not published yet.

    The paper will “hopefully be published in a few weeks.”
    Recent tree: mainly West Country England and Southeast Wales, with several neighbouring regions and countries in the last few centuries
    Y line: Peak District, c.1300. Closest matches: Sweden; TMRCA 1,300 ybp (YFull)
    mtDNA: Llanvihangel Pont-y-moile, 1825
    Mother's Y: Llanvair Discoed, 1770
    Avatar: Welsh Borders hillfort, 1980s

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  18. #310
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    I wonder how much of the R1b here is U106, hopefully we’ll get this data.

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