Originally Posted by
anglesqueville
I tend to agree with this summary of the scenario. At the bottom, far at the bottom, there is the question of the "direction of the arrows" when drawing up a geographical and chronological map of Germanization (in the only reasonable sense, that is to say in the linguistic sense). For me, to use Jaakko Häkkinen's formula in an already very old thread, the arrows go from north to south, period. For Finn, I imagine it's the reverse, as with Udolph and Euler. I say "I imagine", because I'm not always sure I understand what he writes (too many shocking formulas and metaphors for my narrow and cold mind). That said, I must put a number of caveats.
1) This discussion has polluted this thread but is actually inappropriate there. I can't imagine the Anglo-Saxon invasions starting anywhere other than the North Sea coast. And it is quite clear in my mind that this is an internal phenomenon of the North West Germanic branch, not North Germanic. I never claimed that the "Anglo-Saxons" came from Scandinavia. So, if we put this study back in the centre of the discussions, in terms of its central subject (the Invasions), apart from criticisms and disappointments as to its methods, there is simply no controversy.
2) So we are now talking about the nature of this famous "CNE".
2a) I have no objection in principle to the participation of central-northern European groups in the constitution of this genetic profile. It even seems quite inevitable to me. The first thing I did when I put together my working files was put Halberstadt into them (weeks before Finn had the mystical revelation). Problem1: Halberstadt doesn't work, it's as brutal as that. Problem2: we have nothing else. I say "nothing else" to say "Late Bronze Age or Iron genomes from the central-northern European region". To imagine that we can easily plug this hole with genomes from previous periods would, in my humble opinion, be falling into a trap. It suffices to become aware of this to observe on a PCA the position of the Dutch groups from the initial Bronze to the final Iron. So this question of the participation of central-northern European groups in the constitution of "CNE" does not arise, for lack of data. I hope that will change, but so far the reality is this and no other. So, as far as I am concerned, I remain faithful to the good old injunction of good old Wittgenstein “Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.”
2b) What we can talk about are models that have as their sources the Scandinavians of the Iron Age (I am taking the Norwegians, because in the Swedes only two genomes have sufficient coverage, of which one is only passable, and in the Danes, one only genome does the job, for cryptic reasons as I explained recently). It turns out that these models exist, and in addition have adjustments that are often close to perfection. I already explained that the only reason that made me complete the sources with the French_Champagne_IA group is that this group gives the best quality models. I am, for a lot of reasons, annoyed by this situation, and I have tested a lot of alternative choices without finding anything better, or even anything equivalent. So I will concentrate on what has been the major source of the shouting matches: Norway_IA.
2c) I have said and repeated that these models are models, only models and nothing but models. That there is room for a certain interpretative uncertainty from these models, it would not occur to me to deny it. But I can't think of a more economical interpretation (parsimonious if you prefer, in the sense of Occam's principle) than one that suggests Scandinavia-sourced gene flow. I was wrong, however, to suggest in passing that my hunch leaned toward a recent, and therefore fatally massive, flow. It is my intuition, but I must add that I am very suspicious of my intuition. The heterogeneity of the models is indisputable, and it is this that I am tempted to interpret in this way. But frankly, I would not risk my life on this point, and if one day (one can dream) elements tipped the scales in favor of a continuous infiltration throughout the millennium preceding the time of the study, I wouldn't be overly shocked.
foto's delen online
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
