Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

[uintah106]

It's been a painful wait, but Gladiator 2 is set for release in November next year. Marcus Aurelius died in 180, so we'll be in the reign of Septimius Severus if they set it 20+ years after the first movie. If they end up using military campaigns as a story device again, we're unlikely to see Germania this time. Severus was fighting in North Africa in 202, so we could see the return of some of the locations used in the first film. He was in Britain from 208, where he set out to conquer Caledonia before falling ill and then dying in York in 211. Plenty of exciting opportunities for us lot there.

Brings to mind when Rome was stopped at Tueteborg Forest. Took treachery though! World would be entirely different without that Finnish, I mean Germanic victory.

[Blackbeard]

I've seen lots of papers on this, most seem to say the English population is like half-Anglo and half-Briton, with varying amounts from the east to the west and north to south. Not to mention Danish or Norman ancestry.

[JonikW]

Brings to mind when Rome was stopped at Tueteborg Forest. Took treachery though! World would be entirely different without that Finnish, I mean Germanic victory.

That's a thought to conjure with, and I reckon you're right. For a start, perhaps Denmark including all its islands would have ended up in the empire by the end of the first century. I doubt the Romans would ever have gone to the massive effort of annexing much of Norway and Sweden (beyond perhaps bases in Scania) for the same reason that they called it a day in the end at Hadrian's Wall after the long but failed forays into Caledonia. Ultimately the northern tribes were too much trouble when combined with the lack of potential rewards, mineral and agricultural.

But perhaps the Vandals and Goths would never have migrated and instead tried to build better lives on the edge of the western empire if Arminius had lost in 9AD. Pressures from the far eastern fringes of the empire would have continued as they did, pulling in military resources over the centuries. But would Rome have fallen without the Vandals, Goths and pressure on the legions and power base in the west? And would there have been a Migration Period in anything like the form we know it? And then what of Britain, the English language, America, empires and more? It's a fascinating "what if" of history for sure.

[etrusco]

That's a thought to conjure with, and I reckon you're right. For a start, perhaps Denmark including all its islands would have ended up in the empire by the end of the first century. I doubt the Romans would ever have gone to the massive effort of annexing much of Norway and Sweden (beyond perhaps bases in Scania) for the same reason that they called it a day in the end at Hadrian's Wall after the long but failed forays into Caledonia. Ultimately the northern tribes were too much trouble when combined with the lack of potential rewards, mineral and agricultural.

But perhaps the Vandals and Goths would never have migrated and instead tried to build better lives on the edge of the western empire if Arminius had lost in 9AD. Pressures from the far eastern fringes of the empire would have continued as they did, pulling in military resources over the centuries. But would Rome have fallen without the Vandals, Goths and pressure on the legions and power base in the west? And would there have been a Migration Period in anything like the form we know it? And then what of Britain, the English language, America, empires and more? It's a fascinating "what if" of history for sure.

It is doubtful that lands east of the Rhine would have been fully romanized like France ( and Italy BTW) and Spain. I would even doubt that England would become fully latin speaking either. But there is nothing preventing the British Isles becoming an empire with the only difference of speaking Bryttonic

[alexfritz]

That's a thought to conjure with, and I reckon you're right. For a start, perhaps Denmark including all its islands would have ended up in the empire by the end of the first century. I doubt the Romans would ever have gone to the massive effort of annexing much of Norway and Sweden (beyond perhaps bases in Scania) for the same reason that they called it a day in the end at Hadrian's Wall after the long but failed forays into Caledonia. Ultimately the northern tribes were too much trouble when combined with the lack of potential rewards, mineral and agricultural.

But perhaps the Vandals and Goths would never have migrated and instead tried to build better lives on the edge of the western empire if Arminius had lost in 9AD. Pressures from the far eastern fringes of the empire would have continued as they did, pulling in military resources over the centuries. But would Rome have fallen without the Vandals, Goths and pressure on the legions and power base in the west? And would there have been a Migration Period in anything like the form we know it? And then what of Britain, the English language, America, empires and more? It's a fascinating "what if" of history for sure.

both goths and vandals might have migrated nonetheless as an important feature of the mp are also the huns; both direct (vassalage) and indirect (thervingi/danube 376); but before the huns there was a great internal conflict of the empire (crisis of the third century) which ultimately led to aurelian abandoning both the limes (alamanni) aswell as dacia (thervingi/gutþiuda); a conflict that became inevitable and betrayed the starting internal collapse

looking back at the beginnings in regards to pos further roman expansions; the campaigns of drusus and tiberius did actually lead to a planned province called 'Germania' which was started to be enclosed with military camps (most interior pos hedemünden); the usual procedure followed and civilian settlements (canabae) developed near such camps eg at marktbreit and whilst the archaeological site attests to influence spreading in the area it above all shows its limits and limitations; thus based on what had actually happened pre arminius the actual enclosing would have still needed alot of capacities and time (prob centuries) so much so that the areas beyond the rhine would most prob have eventually been abandoned (similar to antonine wall) eitherway and further expansions beyond the elbe let alone scandinavia nowhere near possible in all terms of logistics

likewsie looking forward to the new movie (maybe in 3D)
if set in the times of severus it could also deal with his parthian campaign or the civil war (five emperors year) in the beginning

[uintah106]

both goths and vandals might have migrated nonetheless as an important feature of the mp are also the huns; both direct (vassalage) and indirect (thervingi/danube 376); but before the huns there was a great internal conflict of the empire (crisis of the third century) which ultimately led to aurelian abandoning both the limes (alamanni) aswell as dacia (thervingi/gutþiuda); a conflict that became inevitable and betrayed the starting internal collapse

looking back at the beginnings in regards to pos further roman expansions; the campaigns of drusus and tiberius did actually lead to a planned province called 'Germania' which was started to be enclosed with military camps (most interior pos hedemünden); the usual procedure followed and civilian settlements (canabae) developed near such camps eg at marktbreit and whilst the archaeological site attests to influence spreading in the area it above all shows its limits and limitations; thus based on what had actually happened pre arminius the actual enclosing would have still needed alot of capacities and time (prob centuries) so much so that the areas beyond the rhine would most prob have eventually been abandoned (similar to antonine wall) eitherway and further expansions beyond the elbe let alone scandinavia nowhere near possible in all terms of logistics

likewsie looking forward to the new movie (maybe in 3D)
if set in the times of severus it could also deal with his parthian campaign or the civil war (five emperors year) in the beginning

Either way Three Legions was a massive blow to the multitude of self inflicted wounds. Huns were much later.

[Orentil]

It seems that the title of the above mentioned study will be "Genetic history of East-Central Europe in the first millennium CE" (by Marek Figlerowicz et al.) and be published in the journal Genome Biology. After that we will surely have a much better understanding of the Goths/Gepids and Vandals from Wielbark and Przeworsk culture.

There are rumours on Polish blogs that the Przeworsk samples will turn out to be mainly I1, E1b and R1b-P312 (not sure if in this order) and only some R1a in the east, let's see. We have to treat the results of course with the disclaimer that the main burial rite was cremation so the question is how representative the samples are. The Hassleben samples might be a warning here. The autosomal fingerprint is needed of course to contextualize the samples. Hopefully we don't have to wait to long for the publication any more...

[Roslav]

By the way, I think I may have made some interesting observations while exploring the subject of R-L2 lately. I've been looking at the distribution of L2 in England and it appears to quite neatly correspond with the Old English Mercian dialect (so with East Anglia included):

L2 Britain2b.jpg

L2 Britain 3b.jpg

Albeit without the part that later became part of Danelaw (Lincolnshire mainly). Actually L2 distribution looks a little bit like a negative of the Danish/Old Norse place name distribution. Kent seems to follow suit, Northumberland seems positive too (but clearly less so than Mercia), while Wessex and Sussex appear rather low on L2.

EK2ShBrWkAAF9f5.jpg

EK2AyndWsAAwrp_.jpg

Also, L2 seems to have an interesting distribution in the Low Countries:

R L2 Low Countries2b.jpg

Germany included, it quite resembles the "Old Frankish Sprachraum" and the Franconian dialect continuum.

[falconson1]

both goths and vandals might have migrated nonetheless as an important feature of the mp are also the huns; both direct (vassalage) and indirect (thervingi/danube 376); but before the huns there was a great internal conflict of the empire (crisis of the third century) which ultimately led to aurelian abandoning both the limes (alamanni) aswell as dacia (thervingi/gutþiuda); a conflict that became inevitable and betrayed the starting internal collapse

looking back at the beginnings in regards to pos further roman expansions; the campaigns of drusus and tiberius did actually lead to a planned province called 'Germania' which was started to be enclosed with military camps (most interior pos hedemünden); the usual procedure followed and civilian settlements (canabae) developed near such camps eg at marktbreit and whilst the archaeological site attests to influence spreading in the area it above all shows its limits and limitations; thus based on what had actually happened pre arminius the actual enclosing would have still needed alot of capacities and time (prob centuries) so much so that the areas beyond the rhine would most prob have eventually been abandoned (similar to antonine wall) eitherway and further expansions beyond the elbe let alone scandinavia nowhere near possible in all terms of logistics

likewsie looking forward to the new movie (maybe in 3D)
if set in the times of severus it could also deal with his parthian campaign or the civil war (five emperors year) in the beginning

A very fine source for the "troubles" experienced by the Roman Empire after Varius and 9 AD is the 321 page illustrated doctoral thesis by Thomas Grane entitled, "The Roman Empire and Southern Scandinavia-a Northern Connection!: A Re-evaluation of Military-political Relations Between the Roman Empire and the …" (2007). It includes a great deal of information on various related topics such as the "war booty" finds in Danish bogs during the Roman Iron Age, but particularly provides a wealth of information relating to the problems that the various Germanic tribes posed to Rome along the limes.
This source can be found here in pdf.

[falconson1]

By the way, I think I may have made some interesting observations while exploring the subject of R-L2 lately. I've been looking at the distribution of L2 in England and it appears to quite neatly correspond with the Old English Mercian dialect (so with East Anglia included):

L2 Britain2b.jpg

L2 Britain 3b.jpg

Albeit without the part that later became part of Danelaw (Lincolnshire mainly). Actually L2 distribution looks a little bit like a negative of the Danish/Old Norse place name distribution. Kent seems to follow suit, Northumberland seems positive too (but clearly less so than Mercia), while Wessex and Sussex appear rather low on L2.

EK2ShBrWkAAF9f5.jpg

EK2AyndWsAAwrp_.jpg

Also, L2 seems to have an interesting distribution in the Low Countries:

R L2 Low Countries2b.jpg

Germany included, it quite resembles the "Old Frankish Sprachraum" and the Franconian dialect continuum.

Since 2006, shortly after becoming the first person to be found derived for R-L2/S139 (and R-L20) [the second R-U152/S28 discovered - Charles Kerchner being the first] - my business partner Dr. James F. Wilson who discovered these SNPs noted the eastern distribution of S28 in England and named it the "eastern SNP". In my various articles since, now found under "DNA" on my https://davidkenfaux-research.info (Cimbri / Danish Vikings, Angles, Jutes, Belgae), I have expanded upon this thesis of an Anglo-Saxon / Danish Viking origin of this haplogroup in England and included R-DF27 in the latest iteration. While I had focused on R-U152 and subclade R-L20, I had never looked at the distribution of only subclade R-L2. Thank you for this observation and the work you have done - very interesting. Unfortunately the recent Gretzinger et al. (2022) Anglo-Saxon study failed to offer much support to this hypothesis (except, oddly, for my own rare subclade of R-L20).