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Thread: Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    We do of course know that many but not all Roman towns and villas were being abandoned or reduced to semi-rural status by the 400s. But they may still have remained in the general area of high Romanisation until the Anglo-Saxons made them have to chose to be overlorded or flee west. The Romanised area is essentially lowland England. A starting point is to look at where Latinate Romano-Britains were located just before the Anglo-Saxons started to conquer them

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...wns.villas.jpg

    That is the macro picture. However, it may have been even more a case of pockets of people hanging on to Roman ways, I recently read about one such group just on and beyond the western border of Wiltshire where there are a lot of Romano-British sub/post Roman inscriptions in a small area. That might be the kind of way pockets survived.
    And keep in mind there were 0 Roman samples in this A-S study. Like Alan and others said, it’s extremely difficult to accept that after 200 years of La Tene (450-200 BC), 200 years of Belgae (~200 BC–43 AD), and 400 years of Romans (43-410 AD) there is no detectable genetic legacy. I can’t accept that.

    It’s like going to a 19th century graveyard in in the Old West e.g. Dodge City, Kansas or Tombstone, Arizona and finding no evidence for Native Americans existing during this period.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 06-27-2022 at 02:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadegreg View Post
    English Migrants from the late 19th Century onwards, particularly if testers were from Aberdeen itself.......that influx would have avoided the 'cut-off' criteria for inclusion in the PoBI study. Wasn't there a large Flemish and Dutch presence in Aberdeen?
    I remember reading that there was a kind of plantation of English people in lowland Aberdeenshire in the later Medieval era which left a major trace - the local ‘Doric’ Scots dialect has links to Yorkshire (I think) dialect. Aberdeenshire had until then been a late lowland bastion of Gaelic. So the genetics of rural aberdeenshire were likely radically changed towards the end of the Medieval era. There had of course previously been ‘norman’ land owners but they seem to have had little impact on the language of the ordinary people.

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    the most roman elements would have largely cremated (as of course did some Celts in SE England) until the late roman era when inhumation re-emerges as the norm. Nevertheless, you would think that the French iron age signal would appear at least in some localities in late roman and sub roman non cremated burials of latinate britons. I strongly suspect that though urban life had badly declined by 400AD they would still have remained in the locality as concentrations of latinate Britons. If you read St. Patrick’s confession of soon after it reads like a fully functioning Roman latinate society. Patrick was clearly captured from somewhere that was fully romanised, not Scotland and not likely Wales IMO. I tend to think he was captured from either north Somerset/Gloucestershire. It is likely that prior to Anglo-Saxons perhaps the whole villa zone was to an extent latinate and especially the area around the old civitas and colonia (where hotspots of very romanised populations might be expected). https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...wns.villas.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    And keep in mind there were 0 Roman samples in this A-S study. Like Alan and others said, it’s extremely difficult to accept that after 200 years of La Tene (450-200 BC), 200 years of Belgae (~200 BC–43 AD), and 400 years of Romans (43-410 AD) there is no detectable genetic legacy. I can’t accept that.

    It’s like going to a 19th century graveyard in in the Old West e.g. Dodge City, Kansas on Tombstone, Arizona and finding no evidence for Native Americans existing during this period.
    Well, we haven't seen a PCA of all the samples from the Patterson paper, so said genetic information may be hiding in there. From my limited grasp of the G25 graphs (North & NW Europe), it would suggest that there is a subtle 'continental shift' from MIA to LIA, but I'm probably wrong......

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    the most roman elements would have largely cremated (as of course did some Celts in SE England) until the late roman era when inhumation re-emerges as the norm. Nevertheless, you would think that the French iron age signal would appear at least in some localities in late roman and sub roman non cremated burials of latinate britons. I strongly suspect that though urban life had badly declined by 400AD they would still have remained in the locality as concentrations of latinate Britons. If you read St. Patrick’s confession of soon after it reads like a fully functioning Roman latinate society. Patrick was clearly captured from somewhere that was fully romanised, not Scotland and not likely Wales IMO. I tend to think he was captured from either north Somerset/Gloucestershire. It is likely that prior to Anglo-Saxons perhaps the whole villa zone was to an extent latinate and especially the area around the old civitas and colonia (where hotspots of very romanised populations might be expected). https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...wns.villas.jpg
    Amazing how little the later Celtic zones of Wales, Cornwall and Devon being affected by the Roman influx. It almost looks like if the Romano-British were either easier prey or did adapt and assimilate more willingly to the Anglo-Saxons, or probably both. These regions were largely free from intensified Roman influence:


    Generally more tribal and clanish people resisted both Germanics and Slavs better - like in the Balkans too, the Romance population largely disappeared, but Vlachs and Albanians did much better. Probably something similar happened in Britain. The more centralised and culturally advanced a people is, the harder they can reorganise themselves after a collapse, because they need to take several steps back to achieve an effective lower level organisation.
    Most Romans didn't just play urbanites one day, just to fall back being mountain shepherds which defended their clans a week later...
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-27-2022 at 02:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    the most roman elements would have largely cremated (as of course did some Celts in SE England) until the late roman era when inhumation re-emerges as the norm. Nevertheless, you would think that the French iron age signal would appear at least in some localities in late roman and sub roman non cremated burials of latinate britons. I strongly suspect that though urban life had badly declined by 400AD they would still have remained in the locality as concentrations of latinate Britons. If you read St. Patrick’s confession of soon after it reads like a fully functioning Roman latinate society. Patrick was clearly captured from somewhere that was fully romanised, not Scotland and not likely Wales IMO. I tend to think he was captured from either north Somerset/Gloucestershire. It is likely that prior to Anglo-Saxons perhaps the whole villa zone was to an extent latinate and especially the area around the old civitas and colonia (where hotspots of very romanised populations might be expected). https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...wns.villas.jpg
    Actually looking at the modern map of french IA in Britain, you can see, despite several important counties being unmapped, that there is a general correlation between the most Romanised areas and Higher French IA. Whether that correlation equals causation is another matter because that is essentially lowland zone England - the same area the A-S had most impact. History repeating itself simply because it was the most favourable land and climate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Actually looking at the modern map of french IA in Britain, you can see, despite several important counties being unmapped, that there is a general correlation between the most Romanised areas and Higher French IA. Whether that correlation equals causation is another matter because that is essentially lowland zone England - the same area the A-S had most impact. History repeating itself simply because it was the most favourable land and climate.
    Indeed, the same area being more intensively, primarily settled by
    - Urnfielders
    - Hallstatt settlers
    - La Tene Celts
    - Romans
    - Anglo-Saxons
    - Normans
    - Many continental later migrants

    And many of those could have brought a roughly similar, more continental ancestral component, with Anglo-Saxons sticking out the most. Even the Danelaw affected the Northern part of this English landscape.

    Oftentimes such kind of overlapping settlement rather causes the earlier layer being greatly reduced. I woulnd't go as far as to equate the Eastern, Tisza Puszta region of Pannonia, Hungary, with that part of England, but still: Generally speaking, it wasn't always good to live in the most favourable hotspots, because the next invaders wanted to sit in the same place. Whereas if living behind three forests, you might have had a harder life usually, but when invaders came, your chances of being largely left alone were definitely better.
    That's also what we see in parts of Ireland. "The most Irish" are not necessarily the best parts of the country to live in. This could mean, just could, we have not the evidence, that a lot of the preceding layers being simply swallowed by the newcomers.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-27-2022 at 02:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I think the paper will shed more light of one kind or another in the next few weeks. While Gretzinger seemed to say the French input was post Anglo-Saxon it's interesting that Sayer, who also worked on the paper, felt it came with the Franks. As always, we've got a lot of exciting stuff to discuss ahead.
    OK, I think I’ve got to the bottom of the IA French conundrum now: how Gretzinger’s view that the French IA signal inexplicably diffused through England AFTER the Anglo-Saxon period can be reconciled with Sayer’s view that it arrived WITH the Franks (the puzzle, at least as far as I was concerned, was that both men worked on the same paper).

    I’ve just been looking at a map that I’d overlooked because I’d thought it simply pinpointed the location of the English sites mentioned in one of the charts that I posted earlier, which had included the locations of samples on the continent. I won’t post the actual image now because I’m extremely keen to stick within fair usage and I’ve shared several already. My sincere apologies for overlooking it; in my defence I had a pretty mad weekend…

    As I understand it, the map shows samples from nine of the studied sites where there are associated Frankish artefacts (distribution of Frankish finds is included as a faded tone over the top of the map). These sites broadly span the studied area of England apart from the outliers in Cornwall (a shame because I'd like to see those in particular here). Basically it shows that the green IA French signal is significant in some of the southern Anglo-Saxon sites studied (sites south of the Thames).

    In particular that’s the case for Rookery Hill (where the green component looks not much under 50 percent of the total ancestry), then Apple Down, Eastry, Buckland and to a lesser extent Worth Matravers, a site in Dorset that also has red CNE but at a slightly lower level than the green (at Apple Down, Eastry and Buckland, red is the biggest single component and is well over 50 percent at Buckland). The French component is even found at Hatherdene Close, Cambridgeshire, at a low level (somewhere around 5 percent from what I can see from the tiny pie charts within the map), but it appears to be absent at Polhill in Kent, RAF Lakenheath in Suffolk, Ely in Cambs, Oakington in Cambs, and West Heslerton in North Yorkshire.

    Apple Down (just over a quarter French ancestry as far as I can see) is arguably in an area well known for Frankish objects, as are Buckland and Eastry, although those artefacts also spread through some of the areas of highest CNE ancestry on the map. Worth Matravers - in Dorset, so as might be expected - has the most blue WBI British ancestry (looks about 75 percent to me) but WBI is also pretty significant at many other sites including Eastry (on average it’s about a quarter of total ancestry for those other sites). WBI is still present but at equally low levels at two of the sites with the most CNE, Lakenheath and Polhill (both look to be in the 5 percent WBI range to me).

    So in short, Gretzinger must be specifically interested in the issue of why the French signal only reached today’s elevated levels in England above the Thames after the Anglo-Saxon period (it was present in the studied Anglo-Saxon sites south of the Thames, as I’ve said). That must be what he hopes to get to the bottom of with Reich.

    Sayer, on the other hand, must be looking at the French component they’ve identified in the southern Anglo-Saxon sites (relatively close geographically to Francia and also well known for some of the Frankish finds) and concluding that it must have arrived with the Franks and only gradually diffused northwards from those areas in later centuries (at last reaching as high as 43 percent in today’s East Anglia).

    So from all that, I’d say that in favour of the Frankish theory might be the fact that all the more northerly sites exhibit the WBI component from the native Britons; but while the southern sites have WBI too, they have French IA that the northerly sites lack. If that IA French was actually pre-Anglo-Saxon and didn’t arrive with the Adventus Saxonum, we might logically expect to find it alongside the WBI component further north too.

    But for fans of the Gaulish theory here, we’d arguably expect the impact of those IA Gaulish migrations to be bigger in the south anyway (although personally I’d expect it to at least show up at low levels in the northern samples here if it really was the source of the green component).

    Who knows; perhaps we’ll end up with a compromise model when the work’s completed, with the French IA component being assessed as having arrived at many places and many times, with the Gauls, the Franks and the later Medieval and post-Medieval French all having contributed a share.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Amazing how little the later Celtic zones of Wales, Cornwall and Devon being affected by the Roman influx. It almost looks like if the Romano-British were either easier prey or did adapt and assimilate more willingly to the Anglo-Saxons, or probably both. These regions were largely free from intensified Roman influence:


    Generally more tribal and clanish people resisted both Germanics and Slavs better - like in the Balkans too, the Romance population largely disappeared, but Vlachs and Albanians did much better. Probably something similar happened in Britain. The more centralised and culturally advanced a people is, the harder they can reorganise themselves after a collapse, because they need to take several steps back to achieve an effective lower level organisation.
    Most Romans didn't just play urbanites one day, just to fall back being mountain shepherds which defended their clans a week later...
    That’s true and I think you are right. The highland zone of britain (including Dumnonia) was only extent ku superficially Romanised. Roads, military aside. it’s striking that the people Glidas criticised as being barbaric warlords all come from the littlr Romanised west, despite the fact that the British zone at the time he wrote stretched much further east into the middle of southern England (a much more Romanised area). His admiration of Ambrosius Aurelius as last of the Romans shoes that he was somewhat biased towards the Romanised latinate section of the population. The most likely associations point to him being active in mid south England around Wiltshire and Gildas says that his parents had been been killed in the Anglo-Saxon onslaught which points even further east given the date he wrote in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    OK, I think I’ve got to the bottom of the IA French conundrum now: how Gretzinger’s view that the French IA signal inexplicably diffused through England AFTER the Anglo-Saxon period can be reconciled with Sayer’s view that it arrived WITH the Franks (the puzzle, at least as far as I was concerned, was that both men worked on the same paper).

    I’ve just been looking at a map that I’d overlooked because I’d thought it simply pinpointed the location of the English sites mentioned in one of the charts that I posted earlier, which had included the locations of samples on the continent. I won’t post the actual image now because I’m extremely keen to stick within fair usage and I’ve shared several already. My sincere apologies for overlooking it; in my defence I had a pretty mad weekend…

    As I understand it, the map shows samples from nine of the studied sites where there are associated Frankish artefacts (distribution of Frankish finds is included as a faded tone over the top of the map). These sites broadly span the studied area of England apart from the outliers in Cornwall (a shame because I'd like to see those in particular here). Basically it shows that the green IA French signal is significant in some of the southern Anglo-Saxon sites studied (sites south of the Thames).

    In particular that’s the case for Rookery Hill (where the green component looks not much under 50 percent of the total ancestry), then Apple Down, Eastry, Buckland and to a lesser extent Worth Matravers, a site in Dorset that also has red CNE but at a slightly lower level than the green (at Apple Down, Eastry and Buckland, red is the biggest single component and is well over 50 percent at Buckland). The French component is even found at Hatherdene Close, Cambridgeshire, at a low level (somewhere around 5 percent from what I can see from the tiny pie charts within the map), but it appears to be absent at Polhill in Kent, RAF Lakenheath in Suffolk, Ely in Cambs, Oakington in Cambs, and West Heslerton in North Yorkshire.

    Apple Down (just over a quarter French ancestry as far as I can see) is arguably in an area well known for Frankish objects, as are Buckland and Eastry, although those artefacts also spread through some of the areas of highest CNE ancestry on the map. Worth Matravers - in Dorset, so as might be expected - has the most blue WBI British ancestry (looks about 75 percent to me) but WBI is also pretty significant at many other sites including Eastry (on average it’s about a quarter of total ancestry for those other sites). WBI is still present but at equally low levels at two of the sites with the most CNE, Lakenheath and Polhill (both look to be in the 5 percent WBI range to me).

    So in short, Gretzinger must be specifically interested in the issue of why the French signal only reached today’s elevated levels in England above the Thames after the Anglo-Saxon period (it was present in the studied Anglo-Saxon sites south of the Thames, as I’ve said). That must be what he hopes to get to the bottom of with Reich.

    Sayer, on the other hand, must be looking at the French component they’ve identified in the southern Anglo-Saxon sites (relatively close geographically to Francia and also well known for some of the Frankish finds) and concluding that it must have arrived with the Franks and only gradually diffused northwards from those areas in later centuries (at last reaching as high as 43 percent in today’s East Anglia).

    So from all that, I’d say that in favour of the Frankish theory might be the fact that all the more northerly sites exhibit the WBI component from the native Britons; but while the southern sites have WBI too, they have French IA that the northerly sites lack. If that IA French was actually pre-Anglo-Saxon and didn’t arrive with the Adventus Saxonum, we might logically expect to find it alongside the WBI component further north too.

    But for fans of the Gaulish theory here, we’d arguably expect the impact of those IA Gaulish migrations to be bigger in the south anyway (although personally I’d expect it to at least show up at low levels in the northern samples here if it really was the source of the green component).

    Who knows; perhaps we’ll end up with a compromise model when the work’s completed, with the French IA component being assessed as having arrived at many places and many times, with the Gauls, the Franks and the later Medieval and post-Medieval French all having contributed a share.
    If you google search Franks in England, you can find a number of academic papers on the subject.

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