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Thread: Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

  1. #601
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    I think the issue with language is, it's certainly possible and likely that migration era Franks joined the Angles and Saxons in large numbers, and they would have spoken a Germanic language, and they would have had a very similar genetic profile.

    But Franks bringing French_IA would have had to arrive a little later, after mixing with the population of Gaul and adopting the language.

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  3. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    This map is very interesting regarding the Franks and/or Normans, because look how low in CNE the northern half of France is, which presumably means high French_IA

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    The Belgae of Britain are still somewhat mysterious. If the study that claimed almost no autosomal shift in the iron age in Britain is right then that leaves just 3 choices:

    1. The Belgae tribes that crossed the channel were not classic average French IA but were genetically near identical to the southern Britons they settled among.

    2. They were tiny groups.

    3. The Belgic nature of the tribes actually derived from the late bronze age and later iron age links are just one aspect of a much longer period

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    The Belgae of Britain are still somewhat mysterious. If the study that claimed almost no autosomal shift in the iron age in Britain is right then that leaves just 3 choices:

    1. The Belgae tribes that crossed the channel were not classic average French IA but were genetically near identical to the southern Britons they settled among.

    2. They were tiny groups.

    3. The Belgic nature of the tribes actually derived from the late bronze age and later iron age links are just one aspect of a much longer period
    Somebody should do a paper
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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  9. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    one thing ancient DNA seems to clearly show is the huge impact on Britain north of southern England that seems to have taken place in the high medieval era after the fall of the Anglo-Saxons. This has been grossly underestimated. It looks like that era saw a major change in the populations of northern England and lowland Scotland. Exhibit A is all that French IA which is there today but absent in the early medieval era.

    That likely moved most of lowland Scotland from extremely Celtic up to 1100AD to roughly half Celtic today. And it’s v unlikely pure French IA migrants caused that. In formerly Pictidh then Gaelic places like Angus and Aberdeenshire etc the vast bulk of both French IA and also north European Germanic simply had to arrive post-1100AD. Probably from groups from England, northern France and the low counties who by that stage were characterised by having a signal that included both French IA and north European. Their arrival and growth likely caused the shift from Gaelic to Lowland Scots which gathered pace after c.1400AD. It’s definitely a case of language shift and genetic shift (roughly 50%) coinciding.
    In fairness though the study is basically a middle finger to Wales and Scotland in terms post roman sample numbers from those places compared to england. You may be right, but we'll have to wait and see. Plus we dont know exact timeframe for the english samples. And btw since when is France IA not celtic? If anything, it brought celtic sexy back to scotland after the northumbrian period.

  10. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    The Belgae of Britain are still somewhat mysterious. If the study that claimed almost no autosomal shift in the iron age in Britain is right then that leaves just 3 choices:

    1. The Belgae tribes that crossed the channel were not classic average French IA but were genetically near identical to the southern Britons they settled among.

    2. They were tiny groups.

    3. The Belgic nature of the tribes actually derived from the late bronze age and later iron age links are just one aspect of a much longer period
    I think it's a mix of 1 and 2.
    Remember the Beaker people of Britain came from the low countries. It's also plausible that continental groups were perhaps able to establish political power using fairly small numbers in England because of the economic power they had from trade with the Med and a few advancements such as oppida

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  12. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by V-X View Post
    I think the issue with language is, it's certainly possible and likely that migration era Franks joined the Angles and Saxons in large numbers, and they would have spoken a Germanic language, and they would have had a very similar genetic profile.
    This was a period of major Frankish political expansion. The kings of the small Frankish population could not afford to spare anybody. They needed the troops and settlers for Gaul. Unless Clovis conversion was an attempt by the Frankish leadership to "adopt" the Romans as "their" people, seeing as their own actual people were migrating in droves to england. But come think of it, perhaps a lot of refugees from Syagrius kingdom fled from the Franks to southern Britain, bringing France IA with them

    Quote Originally Posted by V-X View Post
    But Franks bringing French_IA would have had to arrive a little later, after mixing with the population of Gaul and adopting the language.
    So what of the history of the early Langue D'ol languages in England? Where are they?

  13. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straboo View Post
    So what of the history of the early Langue D'ol languages in England? Where are they?
    Exactly my point. If Franks brought French_IA to England, why do we not see any linguistic impact before 1066

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  15. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    The Belgae of Britain are still somewhat mysterious. If the study that claimed almost no autosomal shift in the iron age in Britain is right then that leaves just 3 choices:

    1. The Belgae tribes that crossed the channel were not classic average French IA but were genetically near identical to the southern Britons they settled among.
    So who were French IA in the actual IA? Something like Aedui, Sennones, Carnutes etc?

  16. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by V-X View Post
    Exactly my point. If Franks brought French_IA to England, why do we not see any linguistic impact before 1066
    But that would mean no gene flow from gaul into britain for 1700+ years, which is cobblers.

    I'm thinking 5th century. Saxon shore in France + Syagrius realm, Frankish invasion of Gaul. Refugees and Migrants into southern england. Demographic boom over time. Adopt Saxon language instead of vulgar latin This population then peacefully spreads north to the Thames. Maintains material links with "Frankia", especially the church.

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