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Thread: Upcoming paper on Anglo-Saxon migration period??

  1. #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    I've gotten my hopes dashed so many times before by these initial calls, that I learned my lesson and will wait for some of our citizen scientists to analyze.
    I restarted the process using bwa aln as I got a request for the dataset as well. I will provide the Y-DNA BAMs as well. First results will be released tomorrow.

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  3. #902
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    If there were an eye roll emoji, I would post it right about now.



    Just remember my prediction is 0-1 U152 out the the 35 listed for Suffolk and Norfolk.

    Hey if I'm wrong I'm wrong (like I was wrong about U152 being found in Bronze Age Britain...I don't believe there was any U152 before 400 BC in the Patterson study). Don't see anybody else placing their appendage out there.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 08-12-2022 at 10:30 PM.
    Y dna continued: Z142>Z150>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    80% Brit/Ir-ish
    35% English/14% Welsh/15% Scot/11% Ulster Scot/5% Irish
    14% German/3% Scandi-Finn/2% French & Dutch/1% India

    Be more concerned about seeking the truth than winning an argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teepean47 View Post
    I restarted the process using bwa aln as I got a request for the dataset as well. I will provide the Y-DNA BAMs as well. First results will be released tomorrow.
    Just noticed you are a brother R-Z142! (Maybe I knew this before but forgot)
    Y dna continued: Z142>Z150>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    80% Brit/Ir-ish
    35% English/14% Welsh/15% Scot/11% Ulster Scot/5% Irish
    14% German/3% Scandi-Finn/2% French & Dutch/1% India

    Be more concerned about seeking the truth than winning an argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post



    Just remember my prediction is 0-1 U152 out the the 35 listed for Suffolk and Norfolk.

    Hey if I'm wrong I'm wrong (like I was wrong about U152 in Bronze Age Britain). Don't see anybody else placing their appendage out there.
    Touchť my friend. Touchť.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Just noticed you are a brother R-Z142! (Maybe I knew this before but forgot)
    Yes we are! R-Z142 is the reason I got interested in aDNA as I am from Finland with R1b haplogroup which is rare over here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Just remember my prediction is 0-1 U152 out the the 35 listed for Suffolk and Norfolk.

    Hey if I'm wrong I'm wrong (like I was wrong about U152 being found in Bronze Age Britain...I don't believe there was any U152 before 400 BC in the Patterson study). Don't see anybody else placing their appendage out there.
    Of the 26 Buckland samples posted earlier, 4 are possibly U152, so 25%. Of the 15 Hanover-Anderten samples, 1, or 6.6% are possibly U152. If you were predicting the Continental samples, I would agree with you. But I think the British samples are going to be higher. If so, then as you say we will have to look at grave goods and admixtures for clues, but it really comes down to three possibilities if the British samples have a large amount of L21, DF27, and DF27. Local make lineages were absorbed, the remains are natives, or the incoming Anglo-Saxons carried a very varied mix of yDna lineages.

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  13. #907
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    Quote Originally Posted by teepean47 View Post
    First batch. These were aligned with bwa mem just to get results faster. Yleaf 3.0 uses YFull's notation! [SNP]
    I was able to assign TWELVE of these samples to U106. You can find them at: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing starting at row 174. Unfortunately the tool I utilize to determine the full path for the clade http://www.scaledinnovation.com/gg/adminUtils.html utilizes FTDNA so quite a few of the haplogroups I was not able to determine whether they fell under U106 or not.

    [UPDATE] Using https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-U106/ I was able to identify THREE more U106+ individuals, for a total of 15 in this first batch. In addition, I was able to place the Buckland Cemetery (Dover) samples into the main spreadsheet (rows 75-86)
    Last edited by Wing Genealogist; 08-13-2022 at 12:01 AM.
    Gedmatch DNA: M032736 Gedcom: 6613110.
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  15. #908
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    With 35 samples from the present day U152 hotspot in East Anglia, we should have a better idea if the Angles were a major contributor to U152 in this area.

    Assuming the above samples arrived with A-S, if more than 5 of the above samples are U152 then it’s quite plausible.

    My prediction is 0-1 of above samples will be U152, again assuming the paternal lines are A-S.
    This might not be obvious, but this study may either vindicate or put to rest David Faux’s hypothesis about

    Y-DNA Haplogroup R-U152 in Britain: Proposed Link to the 5th Century Migration of the Angle and Jute Tribes from Jutland and Fyn, Denmark (Hypothesis B )

    David K. Faux

    Introduction
    This present work is a result of a single observation. A geographical pattern had emerged in the author’s database and map representing men of British ancestry with the Y-chromosome marker S28 / U152. The place of birth of their earliest known ancestor tended to cluster along the eastern coastal areas of England inland to the Midlands, some around the area immediately north of Wales (as well as Anglesey), but none along the south coast or the southwest in general. Also in Scotland the distribution included the Northern Isles and along the east coast, with none on the west coast. Furthermore, despite very heavy sampling, no one with a native Irish surname and documented ancestry to Ireland has yet tested positive for R-U152. As the new data continued to “fit the mold” it occurred that this was not random, and so an interpretation in keeping with known historical events might be found, since the clustering suggested a relatively recent immigration to Britain rather than events associated with distant pre-historical times. When the author drew a line around the outside perimeter of the ancestral homes of those who tested U152 positive, it was clear that this was very similar to the boundaries of the Danelaw which separated the territories of the Danish Viking immigrants and the Saxon lands in the south and west. At a later date it became apparent that this was virtually the same boundary relating to the lands settled by the Angles three hundred years earlier. Hence, there was an apparent overlap between all three distributions – R-U152, the Danelaw, and the Angle Kingdoms…

    Hypothesis B - The Angles and Jutes during the Migration Era
    There is another hypothesis which would still retain a link between Eastern England and Jutland, possibly involving the Cimbri, but with earlier (pre Viking era) migrations to Britain. If this hypothesis is going to be credible two conditions must be met if it is determined that there is little R-U152 in present – day Jutland:
    a) It must be shown that at some point during or prior to the Viking era there was a significant abandonment of settlements in Jutland.
    b) At the same time as the above, there must appear in the archaeological record of Eastern England evidence of an influx of migrants from Jutland (and / or adjacent areas of Scandinavia) sufficient to account for the numbers of R-U152 seen in the country today...

    this distribution remarkably coincides with both the Danelaw east – west division and the present – day distribution of R-U152. Oppenheimer (2006) posits that the Vikings, avoided Saxon England and settled extensively and exclusively in those north-eastern regions that their recent ancestors, the Jutes and Angles, had invaded a few hundred years before (p. 415). He sees this as reflecting long term divisions between Angle and Saxon. It is also noteworthy that the map of Anglo-Saxon burials, particularly those with distinctive cruciform brooches found largely in the Anglian and Jutish areas of Denmark and England, is virtually duplicated in the distribution of R- U152 today. Furthermore, the early (pre 650 AD) stones inscribed with Runic script, with analogies only in Jutland (particularly the lower neck of the Peninsula), are only found at sites of early Anglian or Jutish settlement (see Oppenheimer, 2006), and so again map nicely to the scatter of R-U152 today. It appears that a very viable candidate group from those who brought much of R-U152 to England is the Angles arriving from the 4th to 7th Centuries.
    https://davidkfaux.org/Angles_England_R_U152.pdf

    So the Viking study didn’t support Faux’s
    Hypothesis A – Cimbrian Descendants of Scandinavia, the Danelaw, and the Viking Era; as only ~2% of the Viking samples were U152

    This A-S study has the potential to either support of refute his Hypothesis B about Angles & Jutes being a prime source for U152 in eastern England.

    Undoubtedly U152 will be found in samples during the A-S Era…that is to be expected as we know from the Patterson study that they were in England since 400 BC.

    The key will be the ability to determine whether U152 samples are native Britons (Iron Age and Roman Era arrival descendants) or recent A-S arrivals/descendants.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 08-13-2022 at 02:31 AM.
    Y dna continued: Z142>Z150>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    80% Brit/Ir-ish
    35% English/14% Welsh/15% Scot/11% Ulster Scot/5% Irish
    14% German/3% Scandi-Finn/2% French & Dutch/1% India

    Be more concerned about seeking the truth than winning an argument.

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  17. #909
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    Wrap up, please comment!

    I can't wait to get this 'Saxon paper samples' in G25 and other analysis instruments, especially because it contains more than 20 early middle age samples of my hometown Groningen. So it reveals not only things about the English ancestry, also about the North Dutch!

    What I expect to see in this respect is this. Julius Caesar coined Germani for the right side of the Rhine. Tacitus already stated it loud and clear, the name Germani was artificial and forced up on the tribes above the Rhine. The ones who assimilated into the Roman empire had no choice but to accept this label. At the end the Roman period, the Roman army had loads of Germani foederati. But the Romans left the scene and there was a severe population decline in the Dutch area. Tribes like the old Frisii even disappeared from the archeological radar.

    And there was another big factor! From the Danish/North German "bottleneck" a bunch of pirates- to be known as Saxons- came in, and ruled the scene around the North Sea. The old Germani- between Rhine and Weser- gathered around the flag of the "free Franks" under their warlords like "rex foederatus" Childeric they partly moved away SW wards were Childeric became dux Belgica secundus. His son Clovis became the first king of the Franks.

    So in fact the Saxon invaders and the Franks are not to be lumped together under the Germani label (no genetic one size fits all). They preferred their own label derived from PIE *teuta and Proto-Germanic *theudō, like Dutch, Deutsch, or Teuton, and means something like tribe or folk. The (hated) label German(i) became in disuse until the early modern period. The Saxons spoke also different. *theudo corresponds to the Old English adjective Ģeodisc "belonging to the people," which was used especially of the common language of Germanic people (as opposed to Latin), a derivative of the Old English noun Ģeod "people, race, nation." The language name is first attested in Latin as theodice (786 C.E.) in correspondence between Charlemagne's court and the Pope, in reference to a synodical conference in Mercia; thus it refers to Old English. Its first use in reference to a German language (as opposed to a Germanic one) is two years later. That's the difference between old English/ old Frisian on the one hand and old Frankish (that was early Latinised) on the other.

    In genetic sense this means that the Saxon factor- called CNE in the paper- will be prevalent (80-90%) in the outmost North Dutch area of Friesland, Groningen and Drenthe (the paper includes samples of Mildum Friesland and Groningen). But who knows....can't wait to see the near analysis of the samples.
    Last edited by Finn; 08-13-2022 at 09:14 AM.

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  19. #910
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    Progress has been slower than expected as Windows Update did it's thing during the night. I decided to post current results to GDrive so here's Y-DNA part up to MDM005. Please notice that these most likely include women as well!

    https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...9Y?usp=sharing

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