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Thread: Most of South European ancestry in Ashkenazi Jews doesn't seem to be North Italian

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    While on the face of it, this scenario is of course theoretically plausible, it's unlikely.

    First, Ashkenazi Jews have more than 50% occurrence of Middle Eastern Y-DNA; it's closer to 80%.

    Second thing is that what this would mean is that the forefathers of Ashkenazi Jews for some reason stopped marrying Middle Eastern Jewish women, or that all Middle Eastern Jewish women simply died out - and we have no recollection of that.

    And third, the scenario you lay down here requires that the acceptance of converts would be on the same rate as it was in the heyday of Judaism's popularity in the 2nd century BCE - 1st/2nd centuries CE, while we know that especially after Hadrian's decrees and soon after the Christianization of the Empire, the feasibility of accepting converts from the Mediterranean basin has declined sharply.

    It's more likely Ashkenazi Jews (and Western Jews in general) do have significant Middle Eastern ancestry, probably no less than 35% if one is to play with several autosomal models.
    I'm not surprised given that European Jewry cluster with genetic isolated groups of the Levant by their Y-DNA, but not by mtDNA which highly suggests that the migrations from the Levant were primarily Israelite men who intermarried with local Aegean women which is why they're pretty similar autosomaly Southern Italians and Aegean Greeks. Yeah, I'd say that Ashkenazi Jews of Central and Eastern Europe are around 35% Levantine due to having some Germanic and Balto-Slavic admixtures while the Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews of Southern European are around 45 to 50% Levantine similar to Palestinian Muslims.

    Hell, Russian Jews for example cluster the closest to other Jews in the region, Southern Italians of Campania, Maltese, Sephardic Jews and Aegean Greeks than to ethnic Russians despite the geographical distances between these groups.


    It's also interesting to note that Yemenite Jews, despite clustering with Ashkenazi Jews by their Y-DNA, are autosomally very similar to Arabians as a whole which highly suggest that the Jewish men of Yemen continued mixing with local Arab women of Yemen while European Jewry mixed only a few times before stopping all together. It's the same thing for Ethiopian Jewry as well.

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  3. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Italy was transforming into it's Imperial-Rome genetic profile before the Imperial era, and Jews didn't arrive that much before.

    On the other hand, Jews have been living in the Eastern Mediterranean in the Hellenistic world for several centuries prior to their arrival to Rome.
    Yeah, like Egypt, esp the Alexandrian Jews which I think Egypt was their first stop before migration from there to Italy or something.

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  5. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Here's a list of all Late Antiquity to Early Medieval Era (~350 CE to 1000 CE) samples gathered from the G25 spreadsheet, from Antonio et al., Amorim et al. and Potsch et al., which plot akin to modern South Italians/Aegean Greeks, ranging from Cypriot and Dodecanese like, to Campanian for the most north-shifted samples. I've took the liberty to sort them by date:

    Code:
    ITA_Tuscany_Marsiliana_d'Albegna:310CE_MAS002,0.104717,0.152329,-0.026398,-0.060078,-0.004001,-0.022032,-0.002585,-0.010615,0.009204,0.019317,0.004709,-0.000899,-0.004608,-0.003853,0.000814,-0.019358,-0.021644,-0.000507,-0.003645,-0.013632,-0.00262,0.00779,-0.001232,0.006266,-0.000838
    ITA_Latium_Tarquinia:343CE_TAQ021,0.110408,0.158423,-0.012445,-0.052972,0.018773,-0.019801,0.006345,0.001385,0.009204,0.036812,0.002273,0.01169,-0.017096,0.001514,-0.008686,-0.007823,-0.00013,-0.001647,-0.00176,-0.001,0.007237,0.004946,-0.008011,-0.000843,0.011256
    ITA_Tuscany_Marsiliana_d'Albegna:465CE_MAS003,0.091058,0.150298,0.004903,-0.050711,0.036314,-0.030957,0.00141,-0.003923,0.028633,0.030069,0.00406,0.003897,-0.008771,-0.002202,-0.007736,-0.001591,0.011995,-0.008235,-0.008045,-0.003752,-0.011105,-0.001731,0.013804,0.001928,0.010179
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:300CE_500CE_RMPR130,0.103579,0.150298,-0.037335,-0.063308,-0.001846,-0.021753,0.00047,-0.010846,0.003681,0.030069,0.008444,-0.001948,-0.003419,-0.002064,-0.00285,-0.009546,0.002868,0.002534,-0.000628,-0.000875,0.004118,0.001855,-0.013557,-0.001325,-0.00455
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:300CE_500CE_RMPR133,0.108132,0.14319,-0.023381,-0.056202,0.006463,-0.020638,0.00658,0.000462,-0.005727,0.026971,0.007307,0.005245,-0.006244,-0.001651,-0.010993,0.01127,0.021122,-0.003547,0.003645,-0.005628,-0.006613,-0.003586,-0.003204,0.005422,0.005868
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:300CE_500CE_RMPR134,0.097888,0.151314,-0.028284,-0.059432,0.008309,-0.020917,-0.0047,-0.006461,-0.004295,0.019681,0.000162,0.004196,0.00446,0.003853,-0.006107,-0.004641,0.000913,-0.002534,-0.005154,0.00025,-0.004243,0.004204,-0.002958,0.001325,-0.002994
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:300CE_500CE_RMPR136,0.108132,0.149283,-0.013199,-0.040698,0.011079,-0.011435,-0.001645,-0.006,-0.000818,0.018224,0.00747,0.001199,-0.003568,0.004679,-0.008007,-0.001856,0.00339,0,0.005782,-0.005753,0.000125,0.006059,0,0.000964,0.003952
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:300CE_500CE_RMPR137,0.110408,0.15436,-0.018856,-0.052003,0.010463,-0.008367,0.00047,-0.008538,-0.006954,0.028793,0.005846,0.005845,-0.012785,-0.007019,-0.017372,0.003845,0.007432,0.000887,-0.000126,-0.007629,-0.009483,0.000247,-0.000616,-0.002289,-0.003113
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:400CE_600CE_RMPR107,0.119514,0.149283,-0.004525,-0.031654,0.022773,-0.02008,-0.00893,-0.004615,0.010226,0.021322,-0.000325,0.005545,-0.00223,0.00578,-0.007872,-0.007425,0.009127,-0.00038,-0.000251,0.007504,-0.003993,-0.001607,0.010106,0.00012,-0.00012
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:400CE_600CE_RMPR117,0.104717,0.150298,-0.014708,-0.039406,0.011694,-0.015897,-0.00329,-0.01223,0.003272,0.014032,-0.00341,0.010341,-0.013082,0.003853,-0.013843,0.003845,0.004303,0.006841,0.003897,-0.014757,-0.005116,-0.000495,-0.005669,0.005543,-0.00491
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:400CE_600CE_RMPR122,0.102441,0.153345,0.000377,-0.044574,0.016003,-0.019801,-0.00235,0.000231,0.004909,0.031891,0.003085,0.006894,-0.013231,0.006331,-0.0095,-0.010077,-0.007432,-0.007601,0.003897,-0.005378,-0.001248,-0.005564,0.003574,0.005784,0.000239
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:400CE_600CE_RMPR35,0.103579,0.150298,-0.011314,-0.046189,0.013541,-0.020638,0.00047,-0.008769,0.006954,0.021868,0.00341,0.002847,0.000149,-0.002064,-0.010179,-0.001724,0.008605,0.0019,0.000754,0.000125,-0.008235,-0.00136,0.002711,-0.010965,0.002395
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:300CE_700CE_RMPR30,0.101303,0.147252,-0.019987,-0.054264,0.013849,-0.024263,0.000235,-0.008077,0.0045,0.020228,0.000487,0.004196,-0.011447,-0.001514,-0.016558,-0.007027,0.00339,0.003041,0.005028,0.005628,0.001996,0.001237,0.003451,0.002289,-0.003233
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:300CE_700CE_RMPR32,0.101303,0.155376,-0.007542,-0.044574,0.021542,-0.019243,-0.00376,-0.007154,0.002863,0.023326,-0.001137,0.003297,-0.008028,-0.006331,-0.002036,-0.004773,0.005867,-0.003294,-0.005782,0.003877,0.002121,-0.004081,0.003451,-0.011568,-0.000359
    ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:300CE_700CE_RMPR34,0.101303,0.152329,-0.023381,-0.059432,0.007386,-0.023985,0.001175,-0.000692,-0.003272,0.018406,0.002923,0.005095,-0.002973,0.00289,-0.007465,-0.005834,0.007041,0.004054,-0.002011,0.000125,-0.006364,0.004081,0.003944,-0.003012,-0.001557
    ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:580CE_630CE_CL25,0.105855,0.151314,-0.029415,-0.052972,0.001846,-0.015897,-0.00282,-0.004615,0.001227,0.016583,0.006496,0.007643,-0.010258,0.004266,-0.004343,-0.004243,0.009518,-0.006081,0.011187,0.002126,-0.004492,0.009398,0.001479,-0.002048,0
    ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:580CE_630CE_CL30,0.113823,0.150298,-0.026398,-0.056848,0.008001,-0.015897,0.005875,0.001846,0.006136,0.015308,0.010068,0.000599,-0.004757,0.003303,-0.0019,0.000133,0.005085,0.002787,0.004525,-0.001251,-0.001248,-0.008903,0.009983,-0.00253,-0.003233
    ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:580CE_630CE_CL38,0.101303,0.144205,-0.018856,-0.055556,0.007386,-0.016455,-0.00846,-0.008538,-0.004704,0.014397,0.004709,0.009591,-0.00996,-0.005643,-0.014251,0.000928,0.010561,0,-0.002263,0.001251,0.001123,0.006306,-0.002095,0.010001,0.008023
    ITA_Collegno_MA:580CE_630CE_CL121,0.108132,0.152329,0.000754,-0.036822,0.019388,-0.022032,0.000235,-0.003692,0.000205,0.028793,-0.005846,0.01109,-0.011447,0.00055,0.000814,-0.006762,-0.009257,0.004814,-0.003394,-0.01013,-0.004991,0.003091,0.004437,0.00241,-0.007664
    ITA_Basilicata_Venosa:707CE_VEN005,0.110408,0.144205,-0.026398,-0.050388,0.015695,-0.023706,-0.00047,-0.003,-0.000614,0.019135,0.000325,-0.00045,-0.012933,-0.013074,-0.00095,-0.004773,-0.001304,-0.007981,0.004148,-0.010755,-0.007362,-0.006183,-0.001479,0.00482,0.001078
    ITA_Basilicata_Venosa:707CE_VEN006,0.103579,0.141159,-0.009428,-0.034561,0.010156,-0.016176,-0.014806,-0.003461,-0.005522,0.027882,0.006171,0.001349,-0.006392,-0.004404,-0.003529,0.012729,0.003781,-0.008868,-0.001006,-0.001876,-0.000749,-0.009027,0.002465,0.002892,-0.00479
    ITA_Basilicata_Venosa:723CE_VEN012,0.106994,0.125926,-0.018856,-0.051034,0.012618,-0.031236,-0.004465,-0.007154,0.009817,0.03426,0.002273,0.015137,0.004311,-0.01101,-0.008686,0.010872,0.013169,0.005068,-0.006662,0.004502,-0.009733,0.002102,0.011339,0.003856,-0.012574
    ITA_Basilicata_Venosa:723CE_VEN013,0.102441,0.146236,-0.014708,-0.046189,0.006155,-0.011992,0.00329,0.002538,0.001227,0.016948,0.001786,0.003747,-0.001487,-0.002615,-0.011672,-0.01843,-0.011083,0.00076,-0.005154,-0.007504,0.001497,0.003215,-0.013064,0.00735,0.008023
    ITA_Basilicata_Venosa:723CE_VEN015,0.106994,0.155376,-0.014708,-0.044897,0.007386,-0.016733,-0.00517,-0.005538,0.006545,0.01713,-0.008769,0.002398,-0.003271,0.002615,-0.0076,-0.006895,-0.000261,-0.008615,-0.000126,-0.002876,-0.002745,-0.007543,0.00456,0.001446,0.001197
    ITA_Basilicata_Venosa:725CE_VEN001,0.100164,0.140143,-0.002263,-0.038437,0.013233,-0.019243,0.004465,-0.006692,0.007363,0.02041,-0.000162,0,-0.002379,0.00055,-0.007057,0.00769,0.02034,-0.005068,-0.007165,0.01063,-0.000374,-0.002349,-0.003451,0.006266,0.005149
    ITA_Basilicata_Venosa:736CE_VEN016,0.104717,0.152329,-0.008297,-0.040375,0.016618,-0.013387,-0.001645,-0.005538,0.00225,0.02041,0.012504,-0.003147,0,-0.004542,-0.012758,-0.005967,-0.012647,-0.009375,-0.01898,0.005253,0.001123,-0.001113,0.000123,-0.008435,0.007544
    ITA_Latium_Tarquinia:836CE_TAQ003,0.097888,0.144205,-0.00792,-0.027778,0.013541,-0.017012,0.001175,-0.012692,0.006749,0.018224,0.002761,0.006444,-0.001189,-0.003991,-0.000407,-0.005569,0.005998,0.00266,-0.001508,-0.001251,0.004617,0.002349,-0.006039,0.007109,0.007185
    ITA_Tuscany_Chiusi:958CE_ETR013,0.117238,0.150298,-0.000377,-0.037791,0.022158,-0.01506,0.00188,-0.003,0.008795,0.0277,-0.007307,0.014237,-0.013082,0.000826,-0.010315,-0.013524,-0.003912,0.000253,0.00264,-0.006503,-0.009858,-0.000866,-0.002958,0.007712,0.009221
    ITA_Latium_Tarquinia:960CE_TAQ009,0.108132,0.137096,0.001508,-0.037791,0.030467,-0.01506,-0.00047,0,0.011044,0.02041,0.007307,0.008542,-0.015461,0.007844,0.002036,-0.011005,-0.013299,0.006714,0.004399,-0.006003,-0.006239,0.007296,-0.004314,0.001325,-0.001676
    ITA_Tuscany_Chiusi:1000CE_ETR014,0.1161,0.152329,-0.023759,-0.040375,0.014464,-0.022032,0.013161,0.005538,-0.006136,0.024602,0,0.002098,-0.009812,0.008257,-0.018729,0.003978,-0.000391,-0.000633,0.001257,0.007379,-0.012478,0.003586,0.004314,0.01458,-0.001796
    And here's a map I've made showing where these samples were found (in red; except for Venosa which is there for reference since geographically it's S. Italy):

    Attachment 47194


    An important observation is that ~50% of all Late Antiquity, that is, 300 - 700 CE, Rome samples featured in Antonio et al. were still very S. Italian like.

    Distance to: ITA_Tuscany_Marsiliana_d'Albegna:310CE_MAS002
     
    0.03339197 Sephardic_Jew
    0.03995725 Romaniote_Jew
    0.04008152 Italian_Jew
    0.04267258 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.04293164 Cypriot
    0.04420324 Syrian_Jew
    0.04669670 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.04741239 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.04753387 Sicilian_East
    0.04778348 Italian_Campania



    Distance to: ITA_Latium_Tarquinia:343CE_TAQ021
     
    0.03448846 Sicilian_East
    0.03517315 Italian_Campania
    0.03674594 Italian_Apulia
    0.03742907 Italian_Calabria
    0.03746961 Italian_Basilicata
    0.04053845 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.04120942 Sicilian_West
    0.04134618 Italian_Molise
    0.04161192 Italian_Lazio
    0.04330585 Italian_Jew


    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:300CE_500CE_RMPR130
     
    0.02846520 Cypriot
    0.03196593 Romaniote_Jew
    0.03264485 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.03656932 Greek_Kos
    0.03677167 Sephardic_Jew
    0.03818780 Italian_Jew
    0.03993936 Syrian_Jew
    0.04154202 Greek_Cappadocia
    0.04197418 Greek_Central_Anatolia
    0.04232409 Ashkenazi_Germany


    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:300CE_500CE_RMPR133
     
    0.02434908 Greek_Kos
    0.03016181 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.03389315 Greek_Crete
    0.03508038 Italian_Calabria
    0.03615477 Italian_Campania
    0.03675159 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.03827085 Italian_Basilicata
    0.04023271 Greek_Central_Anatolia
    0.04028378 Italian_Jew
    0.04060450 Romaniote_Jew


    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:300CE_500CE_RMPR134
     
    0.02168228 Romaniote_Jew
    0.02526646 Greek_Kos
    0.02597541 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.02617971 Italian_Jew
    0.02775849 Sephardic_Jew
    0.02784957 Cypriot
    0.02925720 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.03040806 Greek_Crete
    0.03187590 Syrian_Jew
    0.03242984 Italian_Calabria


    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:300CE_500CE_RMPR136
     
    0.01635912 Greek_Crete
    0.01646052 Italian_Campania
    0.01744351 Italian_Basilicata
    0.01822068 Italian_Apulia
    0.01865276 Italian_Calabria
    0.01902860 Sicilian_East
    0.02234091 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.02273494 Italian_Molise
    0.02295293 Greek_Izmir
    0.02444009 Greek_Kos


    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:300CE_500CE_RMPR137
     
    0.02589486 Greek_Kos
    0.02812517 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.02931371 Italian_Calabria
    0.02941685 Italian_Campania
    0.03085595 Greek_Crete
    0.03237839 Italian_Basilicata
    0.03306544 Italian_Apulia
    0.03598623 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03641618 Greek_Izmir
    0.03781715 Italian_Molise


    Distance to: ITA_Tuscany_Marsiliana_d'Albegna:465CE_MAS003
     
    0.04205593 Maltese
    0.04887808 Sicilian_West
    0.04898051 Italian_Jew
    0.04959511 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.05019503 Sicilian_East
    0.05033471 Italian_Campania
    0.05118989 Italian_Basilicata
    0.05182227 Italian_Apulia
    0.05237131 Italian_Lazio
    0.05258514 Italian_Calabria


    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:400CE_600CE_RMPR107
     
    0.02676676 Italian_Apulia
    0.02739282 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.02880030 Italian_Basilicata
    0.02960545 Greek_Laconia
    0.02974743 Italian_Marche
    0.03011324 Greek_Izmir
    0.03018713 Italian_Umbria
    0.03021140 Italian_Campania
    0.03155044 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03207281 Italian_Molise


    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:400CE_600CE_RMPR117
     
    0.02700828 Italian_Basilicata
    0.02719378 Italian_Calabria
    0.02728607 Greek_Crete
    0.02750724 Italian_Campania
    0.02782637 Italian_Apulia
    0.03145173 Greek_Izmir
    0.03146263 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03150121 Italian_Molise
    0.03176058 Greek_Kos
    0.03216488 Sicilian_East


    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:400CE_600CE_RMPR122
     
    0.02342963 Sicilian_East
    0.02565369 Italian_Apulia
    0.02764917 Italian_Campania
    0.02876170 Italian_Basilicata
    0.02922826 Maltese
    0.02962180 Italian_Calabria
    0.03018687 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03113032 Sicilian_West
    0.03304294 Italian_Molise
    0.03402035 Italian_Lazio


    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:400CE_600CE_RMPR35
     
    0.02038150 Italian_Campania
    0.02227032 Italian_Calabria
    0.02284932 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.02384032 Italian_Basilicata
    0.02469169 Italian_Apulia
    0.02535185 Greek_Crete
    0.02621730 Maltese
    0.02698355 Italian_Jew
    0.02725594 Greek_Kos
    0.02767626 Sicilian_East


    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:300CE_700CE_RMPR30
     
    0.02365710 Italian_Calabria
    0.02476379 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.02683590 Greek_Kos
    0.02702787 Italian_Campania
    0.02790444 Italian_Jew
    0.02809361 Greek_Crete
    0.02908816 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.02955847 Italian_Basilicata
    0.02971366 Romaniote_Jew
    0.03033240 Sicilian_East


    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:300CE_700CE_RMPR32
     
    0.02633812 Italian_Campania
    0.02822525 Italian_Apulia
    0.02877320 Italian_Calabria
    0.02907080 Italian_Basilicata
    0.02972005 Maltese
    0.03002443 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03006863 Sicilian_East
    0.03095661 Sicilian_West
    0.03145761 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.03412063 Italian_Lazio


    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:300CE_700CE_RMPR34
     
    0.01907265 Greek_Kos
    0.01930650 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.02543541 Greek_Crete
    0.02553142 Romaniote_Jew
    0.02727417 Italian_Jew
    0.02882168 Italian_Calabria
    0.02905512 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.02971780 Italian_Campania
    0.02990264 Cypriot
    0.03092395 Sephardic_Jew


    Distance to: ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:580CE_630CE_CL25
     
    0.02330625 Greek_Kos
    0.02559554 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.02926486 Greek_Crete
    0.03142712 Italian_Calabria
    0.03318198 Romaniote_Jew
    0.03348566 Italian_Campania
    0.03446854 Cypriot
    0.03501423 Greek_Central_Anatolia
    0.03608328 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.03641073 Italian_Basilicata


    Distance to: ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:580CE_630CE_CL30
     
    0.02433108 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.02677308 Greek_Kos
    0.02912672 Greek_Crete
    0.03171766 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.03221123 Italian_Calabria
    0.03261130 Italian_Campania
    0.03406663 Italian_Jew
    0.03495149 Romaniote_Jew
    0.03571066 Italian_Basilicata
    0.03638209 Cypriot


    Distance to: ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:580CE_630CE_CL38
     
    0.02601135 Greek_Kos
    0.02884798 Italian_Calabria
    0.03007833 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.03059864 Greek_Crete
    0.03230910 Italian_Campania
    0.03290198 Romaniote_Jew
    0.03307694 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.03389086 Italian_Basilicata
    0.03397679 Italian_Jew
    0.03692134 Sephardic_Jew_o


    Distance to: ITA_Collegno_MA:580CE_630CE_CL121
     
    0.02550540 Italian_Apulia
    0.02717259 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.02877273 Italian_Marche
    0.02941372 Italian_Campania
    0.02952829 Italian_Molise
    0.03015552 Italian_Lazio
    0.03041192 Italian_Basilicata
    0.03047982 Sicilian_East
    0.03204316 Italian_Umbria
    0.03237850 Sicilian_West


    Distance to: ITA_Latium_Tarquinia:836CE_TAQ003
     
    0.02798303 Sicilian_West
    0.02811934 Italian_Molise
    0.02819043 Sicilian_East
    0.02862129 Italian_Basilicata
    0.02902371 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.02907901 Italian_Campania
    0.02918741 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.02958430 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.02975409 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.02979986 Ashkenazi_Russia


    Distance to: ITA_Tuscany_Chiusi:958CE_ETR013
     
    0.02706831 Italian_Apulia
    0.02829240 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.02896266 Italian_Marche
    0.03012842 Italian_Molise
    0.03071518 Italian_Basilicata
    0.03142200 Italian_Umbria
    0.03143241 Italian_Lazio
    0.03169763 Italian_Campania
    0.03206358 Sicilian_East
    0.03508281 Italian_Calabria


    Distance to: ITA_Latium_Tarquinia:960CE_TAQ009
     
    0.02893830 Sicilian_East
    0.03101889 Sicilian_West
    0.03304440 Italian_Marche
    0.03382458 Italian_Apulia
    0.03526031 Italian_Molise
    0.03539708 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03725252 Italian_Lazio
    0.03760372 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.03794471 Italian_Campania
    0.03799730 Italian_Basilicata

    Distance to: ITA_Tuscany_Chiusi:1000CE_ETR014
     
    0.03564436 Greek_Crete
    0.03732382 Italian_Campania
    0.03829295 Greek_Kos
    0.03863750 Italian_Basilicata
    0.03876888 Italian_Apulia
    0.03893770 Greek_Izmir
    0.03983426 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.04083801 Italian_Calabria
    0.04190036 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.04298806 Sicilian_East


    That, alongside many (I would say, ~30%) samples dated to that period which are almost pristinely North European-like, ie they get Icelandic, or English, or Belgian etc. as their closest populations, to me, at least, means that there was substantial North European (Germanic-mediated most likely) introgression into Italy, earliest in North Italy, but spreading all over North and Central Italy with a North to South gradient. These samples and the map I made from all these studies also pretty much shows the East Med autosomal "profile" which seem to have dominated during the Imperial era was anything but limited to Rome, and persisted pretty significantly during Late Antiquity and Early Medieval Era.

    As I have mentioned in the OP, this shows that despite the de-population of cities, it seems the main drive behind the genetic change of Italy from Imperial-like to what we see today (excluding the South which seem to have mostly retained it's Imperial-like genetic "profile") is migration/incursion/settlement of North European people, and this change was gradual. So this casts significant doubt as to Ashkenazi Jews' getting modern North Italian-like admixture in North Italy of that time (considering we still see many samples which are East Med-like as late as the 10th century !).

    Combine this with everything else which I've mentioned, as well as the fact that historically Jews in Italy mostly lived in Rome and S. Italy, rather than North Italy - this pretty much makes it very implausible; but I'd happy to see evidence countering all of this and pointing out the flaws in the logic I've shown here.
    While I don't disagree with your conclusions on the Ashkenazi admixture (which always seems very logical and I love to read them because it's always a learning experience), if the last busy months did not make me miss anything important, unfortunately we still do miss ancient dna from North Italy (for N. Italy I mean the old 4 Augustean regions of Liguria, Transpadana, Aemilia, Venetia et Histria... which is basically the North Italy we currently refer to, so excluding Tuscany).

    I don't dismiss the statement that I've highlighted in your post, I agree with most of it but I would be curious to see if the "Imperial-like profiles" that we saw in C. Italy, Rome and S. Italy were actually also well spread and predominant in N. Italy too (an alternative which would make sense to me is that the 'hellenistic world' admixture was lower in the north compared to the rest of Italy, although still present, so the Germanic impact which was anyway going to be higher in the North met a general population less 'east-med'* than what they met crossing the appennino tosco-emiliano).

    *with the potential exception maybe of Romagna


    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    I would say, considering the geographic location of Viminacium, it's safe to say the Near East / East Med admixture arrived there from the same area it arrived to Italy; so it's not correct to assume all Roman settlements were like that outside of Italy.

    Btw, even in Italy, I still maintain there was a South to North cline to this, ie I don't think the entire Italian peninsula turned 100% Cretan or Cypriot like, let's just make that clear.
    Edit: my bad... I've replied before reading the whole thread

    I think we actually agree on that, and this makes my post redundant. So let's just transform it in an appreciation for the contribution of the debate and the always interesting threads you open
    Last edited by Northern Adriatic; 01-29-2022 at 01:01 AM.

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  7. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    (...)
    A great OP and contribution.

    Three comments:

    1. It would be best to not use Eastern European Ashkenazi Jews (AJ), but only indigenous German ones. They are genetically notably closer to what we do investigate and they do lack an Eastern European contribution. From my experience there is hardly any influx of Eastern European AJ to German AJ pedigrees prior to abt. 1800. You even today have testees with an only German AJ pedigree.

    2. Some members commented on this already and I do agree to that as a theoretic possibilty: The Y haplogroup origin must not account for 50% of the autosomal DNA. If the Y DNA origin is 100% from region A, then can the origin of the austomal DNA nevertheless be just 10% from A. I do not refer to any genetic drift of Y DNA haplogroups, but to the possibility that new DNA is entering the gene pool only by women from region B. If you repeat this over generations you can decrease the autosomal genetic proportion of DNA from the region A indefinitely. If that at all is a topic, I don't know. But in some comments there were social conditions depicted, where this would be the case.

    3. I asked myself for what would be the most helpful DNA finds to enlight the question dealt with here. And I came to the conclusion that this would be ancient Jewish DNA. I know approximately what Judaism says as for cemeteries. Are there realistic possibilities to retrieve ancient DNA from Jewish cemeteries that are not in use anymore?
    Last edited by rothaer; 02-02-2022 at 12:50 AM.

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  9. #85
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    LivingDNA is not the rocket science within the task of ancestry composition, but they are a (the sole?) company that does not use an AJ component (which maybe even is a consequent approach on this task).

    Now, I found this result for a full AJ



    from this video

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR_y9rHJxtY

    This result is actually not far from my imagination. Adding "Levant" and "Arabia" as for what could represent Palestine/Judaea gives even just 12% (my imagination based just on an educated guess had been abt. 20%), while the vast majority of the non-European component is "South Caucasus" (over 40% in total), which I identify with Asia minor, like local Ephesians etc. This is in line with Asia minor within the Roman Empire harboring a mongfold amout of population compared to the that small and desert-like Palestine/Judaea.

    The European part is clearly just southern European, except that later Eastern European (EE) contribution (9%) for this seemingly Eastern European AJ. As I stated above we should better not deal with Eastern European AJ (but with German ones) when it's about finding out the origin of AJ. So this later dilution with 9% EE will have to be subtracted, so all other contributions will proportionally get somewhat bigger.

    I consider that (pseudo) North Italy in the half 'n half model an artefact out of the (biased) premise to just use Levant-like DNA for the non-European part. In fact the majority of ancestry will be from kind of in between, which historically to me also seems more natural than the religiously influenced common narrative.

    I do expressly not yet claim this to be the found solution for AJ ancestry, but as one possibility that is in line with AJ autosomal genetics and that deserves a closer look. Amongst others it should be thought of if haplogroups do contradict such a scenario. I can not judge that.
    Last edited by rothaer; 02-03-2022 at 01:57 PM.

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  11. #86
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    LivingDNA isn’t a suitable tool to deduce how much Judean or Levantine ancestry Ashkenazim have IMO. For members of the same Ashkenazi family, you see wildly different results (one missing an entire category that LivingDNA assigns as 20% or more to a parent or sibling). My AJ cousin according to Living DNA has no north of the alps ancestry and has a decent chunk of Arabian. This variation between AJs and even AJ family members in LivingDNA is mostly not real, but a sign of model error. Is just not accurate for East Meds, Levantines, and mixed populations derived from them. Further, the site frequently gives large amounts of South Italian and South Caucasus ancestry to Christian Levantines. Tools like G25 or qpAdm (although they have their own limitations) give us a better picture when we generate and compare many plausible models for AJs.

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  13. #87
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    There are some old LivingDNA results in this thread which paint a somewhat different picture: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ing-DNA/page10

    I think it's nice that they break down Jewish DNA into regional components, but I have to agree that their algorithms are just too unreliable and seem to have only gotten worse in the last couple years. My own results were a total mess - mostly just pulled toward where I plot on a PCA so they made me look extraordinarily Iberian/Alpine/Northern Italian (rather than anything resembling half NW Europe, half Jewish). Not that that's an indication they can't handle Jewish DNA in general, but it didn't exactly fill me with confidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MEurope55 View Post
    LivingDNA isn’t a suitable tool to deduce how much Judean or Levantine ancestry Ashkenazim have IMO. For members of the same Ashkenazi family, you see wildly different results (one missing an entire category that LivingDNA assigns as 20% or more to a parent or sibling). My AJ cousin according to Living DNA has no north of the alps ancestry and has a decent chunk of Arabian. This variation between AJs and even AJ family members in LivingDNA is mostly not real, but a sign of model error. Is just not accurate for East Meds, Levantines, and mixed populations derived from them. Further, the site frequently gives large amounts of South Italian and South Caucasus ancestry to Christian Levantines. Tools like G25 or qpAdm (although they have their own limitations) give us a better picture when we generate and compare many plausible models for AJs.
    Yes, LivingDNA may be too volatile and unstable in the modellings. An on/off button for the AJ component at 23andMe would be preferred.

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    Where did the occurrence of Q1b come from in Western Jewish populations? I’ve noticed there is also a noticeable minuscule occurrence of Q in Sicily one of the closest approximate populations. What’s the difference between these two? If we had to argue anything about y dna. I do not think Khazars would have anything to do with it since(I don’t think) there was contact between Judeans & Khazars in the Mediterranean or Anatolia.
    Last edited by Flub; 02-04-2022 at 05:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flub View Post
    Where did the occurrence of Q1b come from in Western Jewish populations? I’ve noticed there is also a noticeable minuscule occurrence of Q in Sicily one of the closest approximate populations. What’s the difference between these two? If we had to argue anything about y dna. I do not think Khazars would have anything to do with it since(I don’t think) there was contact between Judeans & Khazars in the Mediterranean or Anatolia.
    The main branch of Q-L245 found in Sicily is (IIRC) Q-BZ1, a subclade of Q-Y2209 under which the major Ashkenazi branch of Q-L245 is also nestled (downstream from Y2225). Q-L245 is bound to have arrived in Sicily from the Levant, possibly with the Phoenicians or even at a later stage (a Syrian or Jewish origin cannot be discarded at this stage), the lineage itself seems closely tied to Indo-Iranian dispersals and to the arrival of Old Indic groups in the Levant during the Late Bronze Age, for that matter the MRCA of FGC1947 (upstream from Y2209) corresponds rather neatly with the emergence of the Mitanni state which was ruled by an elite of Indo-Aryan origin (Old Indic names subsequently become a common feature among the rulers of the city-states of LB Canaan, around 15% of the male population bore names with Hurrian or Old Indic etymologies).

    The lineage's overall distribution and phylogeny is incompatible with a Khazarian origin (which is little more than a politically-motivated hoax to begin with), and we should expect Q-L245 to appear in upcoming samples from the Ancient Near East.
    מְכֹרֹתַיִךְ וּמֹלְדֹתַיִךְ מֵאֶרֶץ הַכְּנַעֲנִי אָבִיךְ הָאֱמֹרִי וְאִמֵּךְ חִתִּית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-

    אֲרֵי יִצְרָא לִבָּא דַּאֲנָשָׁא בִּישׁ מִזְּעוּרֵיהּ
    בראשית פרק ח כא-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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