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Thread: So North Iran was the homeland of PIE?

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    The problem is not about a J-population, it is that the J lineage got excluded early of reproduction, in a way or another. That is also why we can conclude of a CHG admixture mediated through women.

    Strictly speaking, haplogroup J was not part of Steppe Ethnogenesis. Especially if we take into account the source population of Yamnaya and Corded Ware, as for them, the source population must include some EEF admixture.

    But the mix between EHG foragers and CHG-like mesolithics/neolithics happened before. We have 2 admixture events here. One between EHG and CHG (of unknown origin), another between Early Steppe and EEF. The second something like between 4000 and 3400, the first, perhaps before 5000.
    I would only add at least 2, because there might have been more than 1 CHG-like admixture events on the Pontic steppe. I wouldn't be as sure as for J being completely excluded also, because we might deal with later founder effects which reduced it more drastically than in the initial stages. But to test that, we need aDNA from the Lower and Middle Don, from around the Sea of Azov in particular which is the key region.

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  3. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I would only add at least 2, because there might have been more than 1 CHG-like admixture events on the Pontic steppe. I wouldn't be as sure as for J being completely excluded also, because we might deal with later founder effects which reduced it more drastically than in the initial stages. But to test that, we need aDNA from the Lower and Middle Don, from around the Sea of Azov in particular which is the key region.
    At least in the last stage, J was absent, as we can't find it in Yamnaya or Corded Ware. Could still have some traces of J remaining in some sub populations (as in Karelia), but J was probably not part of the original pool from which those populations emerged.

    Totaly agree. I said 2 events, to stay as simple as I can. But multiple events is a possibility. The lack of continuity between different layers at Rakushechny Yar is telling. A first wave was probably absorbed with limited impact on foragers and so on (at least culturally).

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  5. #133
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    Iran, but also Anatolia has had a lot of diverse and basal Indo-European languages always associated with the J haplogroup.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
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  6. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Iran, but also Anatolia has had a lot of diverse and basal Indo-European languages always associated with the J haplogroup.
    I am not sure if I want to answer. And I have already done so.

    But, if I must: no. Either it is the Anatolian branch, and we don’t have samples, or it is about languages from the Iranian branch, which are the resulting BA/IA migrations (just a reminder, the Indo Iranian branch is the result of CW expansion in Central Asia).

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  8. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    CHG-Eneolithic Steppe affinities intensify via interactions with populations on the Steppe. Late Neolithic Iranian populations and IVC/InPe related populations completely lack this, which makes sense. They also lack the Central Steppe EMBA component. Sarazm or some related population cannot be ancestral to Eneolithic Steppe because it has WSHG related ancestry which is absent in Eneolithic Steppe and in Yamnaya. This all but eliminates any Central Asian origin. OP of that blog is being disingenuous and he knows it.

    Sample Fit Ganj Dareh N Levant PPNB GEO CHG Barcin N RUS AfontovaGora3 Simulated AASI by DMXX Kumsay EBA
    Average (Seh Gabi LN) 2.89 88 12 0 0 0 0 0
    Average (Geoksyur En) 2.67 64.5 0 15.5 5.5 0 0 14.5
    I8532 (Geoksyur En) 4.28 62 0 20 0.5 0 0 17.5
    Average (Shahr I Sokhta BA2) 1.91 57.5 0 0 2.5 8 32 0
    Median (Sarazm En) 4.34 55.5 0 20 0 0 2 22.5
    What sample can be taken for the WSHG?
    KAZ_Botai:BOT14, KAZ_Botai:BOT15, KAZ_Botai:BOT2016 are rich, aren't they?

    Steppe_en have some, it seems.
    No wonder that Yamnaya no longer has any.
    The population to the east of the Capsian sea had a little.
    Then diluted with the mixture of a Steppe populationin in very low proportions. .
    And probably that Yamnaya comes from a very small population which does not have any more all the diversity of the components.
    Y haplogroup: R1b: L21 --> DF13 --> BY145002
    The oldest L21 known are I2457 et I2565 from Stonehenge (Beaker Culture, 2400-1900 BC)

    MTDNA: U4c1
    The oldest U4c1 known are "poz224", Yamnaya culture (2882-2698 BC), and 2 Bell-Beaker in Germany (Karsdorf, 2314-2042 BC)

    Paternal MTDNA: K1b2b
    The oldest K1b2 are Eastern European Mesolithic: Kunda Donkalnis5 (Lithuania), 6000 BC and Meso-Ene Lepenski Vir Lepe28 in Serbia, 5900 BC.
    The oldest K1b2b is Alt-3, Corded-Ware Germany (2500 BC)

  9. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolan View Post
    What sample can be taken for the WSHG?
    KAZ_Botai:BOT14, KAZ_Botai:BOT15, KAZ_Botai:BOT2016 are rich, aren't they?

    Steppe_en have some, it seems.
    No wonder that Yamnaya no longer has any.
    The population to the east of the Capsian sea had a little.
    Then diluted with the mixture of a Steppe populationin in very low proportions. .
    And probably that Yamnaya comes from a very small population which does not have any more all the diversity of the components.
    No, Yamnaya and Corded Ware don’t have any Central Asian ancestry. But Yamnaya absorbed some Steppe Maykop during their expansion. Hence some Eastern Yamnaya having some.

    But the influx is not East to the West, it is the reverse: West to the East.

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  11. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolan View Post
    What sample can be taken for the WSHG?
    KAZ_Botai:BOT14, KAZ_Botai:BOT15, KAZ_Botai:BOT2016 are rich, aren't they?

    Steppe_en have some, it seems.
    No wonder that Yamnaya no longer has any.
    The population to the east of the Capsian sea had a little.
    Then diluted with the mixture of a Steppe populationin in very low proportions. .
    And probably that Yamnaya comes from a very small population which does not have any more all the diversity of the components.
    That would be possible if EHG had it but it does not from what I remember on qpAdm it shows the same thing , Tyumen in the left pops worsens the model. G25 shows the same too.

    Sample Fit Tyumen HG Ust Belaya Karelia HG RUS AfontovaGora3 Simulated AASI by DMXX Ganj Dareh N GEO CHG Ulchi WHG Devils Gate Cave N Simulated AASI NW by DMXX
    BOT2016 (KAZ Botai) 2.26 79.5 11.5 4 2.5 1.5 1 0 0 0 0 0
    Average (Progress En) 4.72 0 0 41.5 10.5 0 6 42 0 0 0 0
    Last edited by pegasus; 12-04-2021 at 12:56 PM.

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  13. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Tolan View Post
    What sample can be taken for the WSHG?
    KAZ_Botai:BOT14, KAZ_Botai:BOT15, KAZ_Botai:BOT2016 are rich, aren't they?

    Steppe_en have some, it seems.
    No wonder that Yamnaya no longer has any.
    The population to the east of the Capsian sea had a little.
    Then diluted with the mixture of a Steppe populationin in very low proportions. .
    And probably that Yamnaya comes from a very small population which does not have any more all the diversity of the components.
    WSHG only appears in Steppe_En when you model them as EHG+CHG+WSHG, it goes away when using AG3. It's simply because the EHG references have too much WHG ancestry, thus to counteract this a more ANE rich profile (WSHG) is forced through.
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  15. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    WSHG only appears in Steppe_En when you model them as EHG+CHG+WSHG, it goes away when using AG3. It's simply because the EHG references have too much WHG ancestry, thus to counteract this a more ANE rich profile (WSHG) is forced through.
    A common misconception people have is WSHG=ANE, thinking the two are genetically identical, which is incorrect.

    Although WSHGs derive most of their ancestry from ANE, there's a non-trivial East Eurasian component absent in AG3/MA1.

    There's also genetic input from European HGs, especially in the Botai.

    f4 stats, pop1=AG3, pop2=WSHG, pop3=ancient East Eurasian HGs, pop4=outpop

    Code:
    pop1	pop2	pop3	pop4	D	Zscore	nsnps
    Russia_AfontovaGora3	WSHG	China_AmurRiver_N	Cameroon_SMA.DG	-0.0348	-5.887	227246
    Russia_AfontovaGora3	WSHG	China_AmurRiver_Mesolithic	Cameroon_SMA.DG	-0.0308	-4.679	212606
    Russia_AfontovaGora3	WSHG	China_AmurRiver_EarlyN	Cameroon_SMA.DG	-0.0314	-4.545	218955
    Russia_AfontovaGora3	WSHG	Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG	Cameroon_SMA.DG	-0.027	-4.198	237517

    The significant Z-score (>3) strongly implies gene-flow between the second and third populations, i.e., East Asian admixture in WSHGs.

    The ESHG/East Asian component increases in later WSHG-derived groups like the Botai, as evident from the D and Z-scores.

    Code:
    pop1	pop2	pop3	pop4	D	Zscore	nsnps
    Russia_AfontovaGora3	Kazakhstan_Botai.SG	Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG	Cameroon_SMA.DG	-0.0459	-7.849	258569
    Russia_AfontovaGora3	Kazakhstan_Botai.SG	China_AmurRiver_EarlyN	Cameroon_SMA.DG	-0.0405	-6.799	228911
    There's no East Asian admixture in Steppe Eneolithic, Steppe-EMBA, early Corded Ware - which dismisses the possibility that they have ancestry-related WSHGs/Botai.


    Link to more f4 stats

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  17. #140
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    Ehhhh, I wouldn't be terribly assertive here. There's different capture methods here and Dstats don't show the direction of flow, but an extra relationship. Also, WSHG into Piedmont EN would make more sense than AG3 due to location and timeframe.

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