Page 10 of 11 FirstFirst ... 891011 LastLast
Results 91 to 100 of 105

Thread: So North Iran was the homeland of PIE?

  1. #91
    Registered Users
    Posts
    8
    Sex
    Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    I am not sure that you have understand.

    Neolithization in South Asia is related to an Iran_N related population, which expanded to the East:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...581v1.full.pdf
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867419309675
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...gros_Iran_OPEN

    I understand that vAsiSTha is on desagreement with those papers.

    Given that Steppe Enelithic is a mix of EHG and a CHG-like population, finding some relatedness is logical.

    That "this Indo-Iranian Neolithic intrusion happened from south of Caspian into Pontic Caspian Steppe" is your point of view.

    It is clear from years, that some groups from Volga have south caspians influences (so with some level of gene flow). But it doesn't mean that those populations was ancestral to Steppe Eneolithic. And those graphs can't answer to that question.

    It is also very unlikely that a closely related population to Ganj Dareh N was the source for the CHG-like population in Steppe Eneolithic (which is closer to CHG than to Ganj Dareh N aka Iran_N). CHG and Iran_N diverged too long ago.
    //Neolithization in South Asia is related to an Iran_N related population, which expanded to the East://
    quote from the one of the papers you referred to: " The Iranian-related ancestry in the IVC derives from a lineage leading to early Iranian farmers, herders, and hunter-gatherers before their ancestors separated, contradicting the hypothesis that the shared ancestry between early Iranians and South Asians reflects a large-scale spread of western Iranian farmers east. Instead, sampled ancient genomes from the Iranian plateau and IVC descend from different groups of hunter-gatherers who began farming without being connected by substantial movement of people."

    so this Neolithization of South Asia by Iranian Farmers (Iran_N) has been disputed?

  2. #92
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,560
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a29a

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by mukin View Post
    so this Neolithization of South Asia by Iranian Farmers (Iran_N) has been disputed?
    As you can read. But the question is: Iran_N or a closely related population.

    In any case, completely off topic.

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     Hando (11-25-2021)

  4. #93
    Registered Users
    Posts
    8
    Sex
    Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    As you can read. But the question is: Iran_N or a closely related population.

    In any case, completely off topic.
    :-) Closely related population that branched off before 10000 BCE, how could one call it as Iran_N?

    //completely off topic// relevant, because the same population contributed to Irula as well as Steppe Eneolithic, according to the qpGraph

  5. #94
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,560
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a29a

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    About Neolithization of the Steppe, I think it is important to point to the complexity of this region. As example, two papers, one about Lower Volga, and the other, about Lower Don:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...stern_Azov_Sea
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...r_Volga_Region

    Please note that in most of the cases, Neolithic is reduced to the use of ceramic (no domesticated animals).

    About North Black Sea:
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a65...aecc861e0d.pdf

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     Hando (11-25-2021),  Megalophias (11-25-2021),  mukin (11-25-2021),  Riverman (11-25-2021)

  7. #95
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,560
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a29a

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by mukin View Post
    :-) Closely related population that branched off before 10000 BCE, how could one call it as Iran_N?

    //completely off topic// relevant, because the same population contributed to Irula as well as Steppe Eneolithic, according to the qpGraph
    The graph is faulty, in any case.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     Hando (11-25-2021)

  9. #96
    Registered Users
    Posts
    8
    Sex
    Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    The graph is faulty, in any case.
    Faulty? how?

    does that mean the qpGraphs by Chad showing the origin of south of caspian to steppe also faulty?
    https://populationgenomics.blog/2019...rom-the-south/

    or even the qpGraph given in the paper is also faulty?

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to mukin For This Useful Post:

     Hando (Yesterday)

  11. #97
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,475
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    About Neolithization of the Steppe, I think it is important to point to the complexity of this region. As example, two papers, one about Lower Volga, and the other, about Lower Don:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...stern_Azov_Sea
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...r_Volga_Region

    Please note that in most of the cases, Neolithic is reduced to the use of ceramic (no domesticated animals).

    About North Black Sea:
    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a65...aecc861e0d.pdf
    I would add this key paper:
    There is a whole array of other features in assemblages
    from the earliest settlements in the Rakushechnyi
    Yar tradition that were not known around
    7000 BC in the Caucasus or elsewhere on the steppe
    and in the semi-deserts of the Pontic-Caspian, but
    were observed in the 9th to 7th millennium cal BC in
    the Neolithic of the PPNB stage in areas located to
    the south of the Caucasus in the Middle East, in particular
    in the Zagros mountains on the borders between
    Iran, Iraq and Turkey (Gorelik et al. 2014.
    255–278).
    The simultaneous emergence in north-east region
    of the Sea of Azov at an aceramic stage of the whole
    set of functionally interrelated features of the Neolithic
    package can be most logically explained by migration.
    The territory of the Zagros Mountains, the
    border zone between Iran, Iraq and Turkey (Anatolia),
    where during Pre-Pottery period B, many parallels
    with the idiosyncratic features appeared, and
    assemblages from the Early Neolithic of the southeast
    European plain could be regarded as a possible
    ‘donor’ area. It is possible to assume the two most
    probable ways of penetration from this region to the
    Azov’s shores: the Black Sea coast of the Caucasus or
    by sea.
    It is impossible to exclude the possibility of numerous
    contacts and probable participation in this cultural
    transfer also of the Mesolithic- Neolithic population
    of the North and West Caucasus. It seems
    that penetration from West Asia into the foreland
    of the Sea of Azov of a quite wide set of features of
    the Neolithic package, apparently in the framework
    of demic diffusion, did not lead to a deep Neolithic
    transformation, which took place in other regions’
    ‘secondary Neolithisation’, for example, in Europe.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...two_steps_back

    R. yar and surrounding sites are absolutely key in understanding the transformation and a potential relatively more recent more "Southern" element on the step. We just need ancient DNA from the Lower Don to test various models. But even if these sites would be related to Transcaucasian colonists, like mentioned before, they would just be contributors, not the only or primary founders and surely not on dominant on the paternal side.

    For any kind of archaeological research, especially on half-Neoliticised fisher people, the rising sea levels need to be considered too, because they coastline would have been quite different back then.

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     ffoucart (11-25-2021),  Hando (Yesterday),  Megalophias (11-25-2021)

  13. #98
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,560
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a29a

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by mukin View Post
    Faulty? how?

    does that mean the qpGraphs by Chad showing the origin of south of caspian to steppe also faulty?
    https://populationgenomics.blog/2019...rom-the-south/

    or even the qpGraph given in the paper is also faulty?
    Kale has explained why in another thread.

    Chad didn’t reach the same conclusions as you. He also has put emphasis on the need of more samples.

    Take a look at the papers posted. There are good reasons to take a good look at what happened in the West. Anthony disregarded the West for good and bad reasons. Good because of datations difficulties, bad because it doesn’t seem to fit with his narrative.

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     Hando (Yesterday),  mukin (11-25-2021)

  15. #99
    Registered Users
    Posts
    8
    Sex
    Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Kale has explained why in another thread.

    Chad didn’t reach the same conclusions as you. He also has put emphasis on the need of more samples.

    Take a look at the papers posted. There are good reasons to take a good look at what happened in the West. Anthony disregarded the West for good and bad reasons. Good because of datations difficulties, bad because it doesn’t seem to fit with his narrative.
    Thanks, for the same reason as Kale pointed out. okay.
    btw, it is not my qpGraph, I am only curious observer :-)

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to mukin For This Useful Post:

     ffoucart (11-25-2021),  Hando (Yesterday)

  17. #100
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,560
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a29a

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by mukin View Post
    Thanks, for the same reason as Kale pointed out. okay.
    btw, it is not my qpGraph, I am only curious observer :-)
    And I must add, even if it was good, I will not find it very informative for Steppe Ethnogenesis:

    "5. Adding Irula (South Indian Tribe)

    Adding Irula makes the IranN component split into two and thus we get the need for the node IndiaN. This node was discovered in the Rakhigarhi paper2, but yet a name has not been given. So i have decided to call it IndiaN, although its formation is much prior to the neolithic, somewhere around 20-15 kya. Important to note is that IndiaN provides 40% of Irula ancestry, informing us of the deep impact of this ancestry even to the south of India."

    A bit too old to have been a direct source of admixture for a 6000 years old population.

  18. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     Arlus (11-25-2021),  Hando (Yesterday),  Ruderico (11-25-2021)

Page 10 of 11 FirstFirst ... 891011 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1386
    Last Post: 11-16-2021, 08:40 PM
  2. Genetic Homeland
    By vettor in forum Other
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-25-2021, 01:34 PM
  3. The Bell Beaker Homeland
    By rms2 in forum R1b General
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 04-25-2018, 01:10 PM
  4. Replies: 55
    Last Post: 02-20-2016, 10:52 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •