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Thread: So North Iran was the homeland of PIE?

  1. #101
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    There is another point which must be highlighted: Khvalynsk (on the Volga) have probably very little to do to Steppe Ethnogenesis. They don't share any closeness with Yamnaya or Corded Ware if you are looking to relationship (IBD/IBP):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoGmPJJS3X8

    shared Yamnaya-Corded.JPG

    It is stricking as Khvalynsk and Ekaterinovia have some closeness, and as Yamnaya and Corded Ware are related (and we see the contribution from GAC to CW).

    Clearly, if the result is correct (and I think that if Reich use it, he thinks it is) Khvalynsk is a dead end.

    And if they are trying to push something like: some Iranian population mixed with EHG on the Volga to form Khvalynsk aka Steppe Eneolithic, there will be a big problem.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 11-25-2021 at 01:59 PM.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    There is another point which must be highlighted: Khvalynsk (on the Volga) have probably very little to do to Steppe Ethnogenesis. They don't share any closeness with Yamnaya or Corded Ware if you are looking to relationship (IBD/IBP):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoGmPJJS3X8

    shared Yamnaya-Corded.JPG

    It is stricking as Khvalynsk and Ekaterinovia have some closeness, and as Yamnaya and Corded Ware are related (and we see the contribution from GAC to CW).

    Clearly, if the result is correct (and I think that if Reich use it, he thinks it is) Khvalynsk is a dead end.

    And if they are trying to push something like: some Iranian population mixed with EHG on the Volga to form Khvalynsk aka Steppe Eneolithic, there will be a big problem.
    We know both from archaeology and genetic results that Khvalynsk was related to the Sredny Stog, probably being even a very early descendent from it, from the Lower-Middle Don, which moved up the Volga and mixed with locals. The closer to the Don, the earlier, the more they are like Sredny Stog and Yamnaya, the later, the further up the Volga, the more different. This speaks for itself and yes, they were just a dead end decoupled from the main developments in the Don region.
    We also know that Yamnaya and the Western steppe groups were together far longer and that Yamnaya later replaced Khvalynsk, apparently with only little gene flow and admixture. Otherwise more of the Eastern forager and Neolithic ancestry would have made it into the steppe gene pool. Khvalynsk is one of the steppe groups which failed and were replaced.

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  5. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    There is another point which must be highlighted: Khvalynsk (on the Volga) have probably very little to do to Steppe Ethnogenesis. They don't share any closeness with Yamnaya or Corded Ware if you are looking to relationship (IBD/IBP):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoGmPJJS3X8

    shared Yamnaya-Corded.JPG

    It is stricking as Khvalynsk and Ekaterinovia have some closeness, and as Yamnaya and Corded Ware are related (and we see the contribution from GAC to CW).

    Clearly, if the result is correct (and I think that if Reich use it, he thinks it is) Khvalynsk is a dead end.

    And if they are trying to push something like: some Iranian population mixed with EHG on the Volga to form Khvalynsk aka Steppe Eneolithic, there will be a big problem.
    I'm not much knowledged on IBD, but could the lack of connections just be due to too much time passing between Khvalynsk and Yamnaya and the segments breaking down?
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  7. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    I'm not much knowledged on IBD, but could the lack of connections just be due to too much time passing between Khvalynsk and Yamnaya and the segments breaking down?
    Yes indeed, just look at Unetice for example. But, even Unetice largely shows an overlap, still, this means that Khalynsk if being from the same source and stock as Yamnaya did split quite some time before from the Sredny Stog/Yamnaya. Another factor seems to be admixture, because the more admixture, the lower the percentage going by that graph for Corded Ware and Unetice samples in comparison to Yamnaya. Nevertheless, the decrease with admixture and over time is striking.

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  9. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    I'm not much knowledged on IBD, but could the lack of connections just be due to too much time passing between Khvalynsk and Yamnaya and the segments breaking down?
    Yes, but if Khvalynsk was the source for Yamnaya, or contributed to a large extent to their ethnogenesis, you should be able to see a difference between them and non parent population. It is not the case. The logical conclusion that they didn’t, and if related, the split is rather old (we do see some closeness between Yamnaya and Unetice, with around 1000 years between them or more).

    It can be argued that Khvalynsk could encompass different populations, but this is not what we see with samples.

    So they could be distantly related, but this is not Anthony’s theory (he sees them as the source population for Steppe Eneolithic).

    Add on: even if we don't see IBD, we should be able to see some IBP. We can still see some IBP in modern populations from BA. It depends on which setting they choose. But with 4 cMs segments, I don't think that a source population could be missed.
    Last edited by ffoucart; Yesterday at 08:16 AM.

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