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Thread: So North Iran was the homeland of PIE?

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    PIE were mostly ( probably all in fact) made up of mostly indigenous european upper paleolithic ( ANE like) and indigenous mesolithic europeans ( WHG related).
    I suppose you're talking about paleolithic lineages that are tens of thousands of years old, because ANE hasn't been found in Europe but in Northern Asia. By the same argument one could say PIE is Crown Eurasian, or even African, because that's where all human lineages ultimately come from. In my opinion we should just stick to the Pontic-Caspian steppe and leave the large continents aside, but to each their own, obviously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    I suppose you're talking about paleolithic lineages that are tens of thousands of years old, because ANE hasn't been found in Europe but in Northern Asia. By the same argument one could say PIE is Crown Eurasian, or even African, because that's where all human lineages ultimately come from. In my opinion we should just stick to the Pontic-Caspian steppe and leave the large continents aside, but to each their own, obviously.
    I’m talk about both about genome wide ancestry and ydna. ANE is from northern Asia but most of its ancestry is upper Paleolithic west Eurasian and in particular European upper Paleolithic . ANE was directly present in person in the steppe with one of its younger type that is Afontova Gora dna. WHG was present as a proximate source of PIE too. The comparison with broad crown Eurasian is wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I’m talk about both about genome wide ancestry and ydna. ANE is from northern Asia but most of its ancestry is upper Paleolithic west Eurasian and in particular European upper Paleolithic . ANE was directly present in person in the steppe with one of its younger type that is Afontova Gora dna. WHG was present as a proximate source of PIE too. The comparison with broad crown Eurasian is wrong.
    What I meant was, ANE didn't speak PIE. Neither did the Upper Paleolithic people in Europe or Siberia. The particular EHG+CHG mix in the Pontic-Caspian steppe spoke PIE. It's been a while since I read Mallory's book but I remember he was very skeptical of trying to project proto-proto-proto-IE in the distant past of mesolithic or paleolithic populations. We simply don't know what languages these folks spoke and we couldn't possibly know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    To my knowledge, Linguistic consensus is still a homeland in the Pontic Steppe. And PIE is a linguistic matter, not a genetic one.



    Because we are talking of different theories, and different populations.

    .
    there is no consensus on this issue, given that there is more than one theory on the issue. More importantly, as you say, it is a problem of linguists, but in reality there is absolutely no specific data on the languages ​​of these cultures that you are referring to. There is no inscription that can make this contradictory theory anything more, especially when it also lacks the necessary cultural aspects transmitted by the older Neolithic cultures from the west. In short, PIE has nothing to do with the “steppe” and the existing of the Anatolian branch is the proof for this, as the last paper on the Etruscans confirmed it. What else do you need to land and look at things impartially?

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    The relationship between Iran and the Caucasus is simply made up, CHG and Iran are very different components and they are easily distinguishable.



    You have the two right admixing population being few kilometers from each other around the steppe piedmont (already mixing in the eneolithic), no need for an imaginary migration around the caspian sea with no archeological or genetical evidence.
    Last edited by Ariel90; 11-12-2021 at 04:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Even if one part of the CHG ancestry would have been Transcaucasian, which is possible, because just like in Europe, we don't know all regional populations profile yet, this doesn't make PIE Transcaucasian-Iranian. Like just assume that into the lower Don a group of herder-fisher, half-Neolithicised people migrated, which is not proven, but very well possible, they would have been just one element of a mixed local population which transformed into PIE. And even more, the dominant, paternal part, would still be from the local fisher-hunter groups.
    Your statement is an assumption built on another assumption.
    What does this "which transformed into PIE" mean? We need an absolute assimilation of these herder-fishermen from the Neolithic cultures to talk about a full replacement of their language, which according and by your statement, suggests that “herder-fishermen”, are not the real source of the PIE. Pontic-Caspian steppe is not the source then?
    In my opinion, the dominant role for language transmission is more logical to come from the mother. She is the one who takes care of the child from the swing. In addition, the distribution of mtdna in Europe is eloquent in contrast to the more diverse male dna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutut View Post
    Your statement is an assumption built on another assumption.
    What does this "which transformed into PIE" mean? We need an absolute assimilation of these herder-fishermen from the Neolithic cultures to talk about a full replacement of their language, which according and by your statement, suggests that “herder-fishermen”, are not the real source of the PIE. Pontic-Caspian steppe is not the source then?
    In my opinion, the dominant role for language transmission is more logical to come from the mother. She is the one who takes care of the child from the swing. In addition, the distribution of mtdna in Europe is eloquent in contrast to the more diverse male dna.
    Here are two recent reviews that indicate Indo-European arrived in Europe in conjunction with a primarily male migration from the steppes. How do you reconcile your point of view with the evidence presented in the reviews and the papers they reference?

    The genetic and cultural impact of the Steppe migration into Europe
    The Steppe migration had a considerable impact on the genetic makeup of the Bronze Age European populations. The data suggest that the Steppe-related ancestry arriving into Central Europe was male-driven, dominantly in the Corded Ware culture populations and lesser in the Bell Beaker populations. In fact, there is no evidence that this migration had a significant input on the mitochondrial genetic pool of all European Bronze Age populations.
    ...
    In accordance with this large-scale population movement, the archaeological records show a discontinuity of some cultural practices and the subsequent introduction of new traditions and technologies from the Steppe all over Europe. In fact, the spread of the Steppe-related ancestry was not only along with the male genetic pool but also brought some important cultural changes such as horse riding, the spread of Indo-European languages, and change in burial practices (Anthony 2007; Furholt 2019). The change of material culture suggests the emergence of a new situation when Steppe migrants approached Neolithic communities, and started to interact with them mostly through intermating with Neolithic women (Kristiansen et al. 2017).

    Insights into human history from the first decade of ancient human genomics
    Around 4.9 ka, steppe ancestry [a mixture of at least two hunter-gatherer ancestries from present-day Russia (Eastern hunter-gatherers) and the Caucasus (Caucasus hunter-gatherers) (52)]—closest related to individuals that were found associated with the the Yamnaya culture, a cultural complex that spread across the entire Pontic-Caspian-Ural steppe region—expanded westward and eastward (Fig. 3) (53). This ancestry appeared in Central Europe and formed the population associated with the Corded Ware culture (hallmarked by cord-decorated ceramics) ~4.9 ka (53). It was suggested that Indo-European languages spread into Europe together with populations carrying steppe ancestry (53). Around 4.6 ka, individuals with steppe ancestry arrived in the British Isles, coinciding with the spread of the Bell Beaker Complex (defined by assemblages of stylized bell-shaped grave goods), replacing within a few hundred years ~90% of the local gene pool (54). The genetic evidence suggests that this process was mostly driven by male individuals (55) because in both the British Isles and Iberia, almost all Late Neolithic Y chromosomes were replaced by Eastern European steppe–related Y chromosomes

    Also, what's your evidence for "the distribution of mtdna in Europe is eloquent in contrast to the more diverse male dna." I'm familiar with several papers which claim evidence of exogamy/patrilocal patterns, especially in Bronze Age Europe. But you seem to be implying the opposite? Here's a couple of recent papers, their references show more of the same.

    Kinship and social organization in Copper Age Europe. A cross-disciplinary analysis of archaeology, DNA, isotopes, and anthropology from two Bell Beaker cemeteries
    While likely monogamous, they practiced exogamy, as six out of eight non-locals are women. Maternal genetic diversity is high with 23 different mitochondrial haplotypes from 34 individuals, whereas all males belong to one single Y-chromosome haplogroup without any detectable contribution from Y-chromosomes typical of the farmers who had been the sole inhabitants of the region hundreds of years before. This provides evidence for the society being patrilocal, perhaps as a way of protecting property among the male line, while in-marriage from many different places secured social and political networks and prevented inbreeding.

    Reconstructing genetic histories and social organisation in Neolithic and Bronze Age Croatia
    The relatively high mitochondrial haplotype diversity and very low Y chromosomal diversity among related males suggests the inhumed individuals belonged to a community characterised by female exogamy and adherence to a patrilocal social organisation,also observed at other Late Neolithic and Bronze Age cemeteries in Europe
    Last edited by pmokeefe; 11-12-2021 at 06:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    The relationship between Iran and the Caucasus is simply made up, CHG and Iran are very different components and they are easily distinguishable.



    You have the two right admixing population being few kilometers from each other around the steppe piedmont (already mixing in the eneolithic), no need for an imaginary migration around the caspian sea with no archeological or genetical evidence.
    But does Hotu have CHG related admixture + something very different or what and what can that be? How these components are supposed to have formed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmokeefe View Post
    Here are two recent reviews that indicate Indo-European arrived in Europe in conjunction with a primarily male migration from the steppes. How do you reconcile your point of view with the evidence presented in the reviews and the papers they reference?

    The genetic and cultural impact of the Steppe migration into Europe
    The Steppe migration had a considerable impact on the genetic makeup of the Bronze Age European populations. The data suggest that the Steppe-related ancestry arriving into Central Europe was male-driven, dominantly in the Corded Ware culture populations and lesser in the Bell Beaker populations. In fact, there is no evidence that this migration had a significant input on the mitochondrial genetic pool of all European Bronze Age populations.
    ...
    In accordance with this large-scale population movement, the archaeological records show a discontinuity of some cultural practices and the subsequent introduction of new traditions and technologies from the Steppe all over Europe. In fact, the spread of the Steppe-related ancestry was not only along with the male genetic pool but also brought some important cultural changes such as horse riding, the spread of Indo-European languages, and change in burial practices (Anthony 2007; Furholt 2019). The change of material culture suggests the emergence of a new situation when Steppe migrants approached Neolithic communities, and started to interact with them mostly through intermating with Neolithic women (Kristiansen et al. 2017).

    Insights into human history from the first decade of ancient human genomics
    Around 4.9 ka, steppe ancestry [a mixture of at least two hunter-gatherer ancestries from present-day Russia (Eastern hunter-gatherers) and the Caucasus (Caucasus hunter-gatherers) (52)]—closest related to individuals that were found associated with the the Yamnaya culture, a cultural complex that spread across the entire Pontic-Caspian-Ural steppe region—expanded westward and eastward (Fig. 3) (53). This ancestry appeared in Central Europe and formed the population associated with the Corded Ware culture (hallmarked by cord-decorated ceramics) ~4.9 ka (53). It was suggested that Indo-European languages spread into Europe together with populations carrying steppe ancestry (53). Around 4.6 ka, individuals with steppe ancestry arrived in the British Isles, coinciding with the spread of the Bell Beaker Complex (defined by assemblages of stylized bell-shaped grave goods), replacing within a few hundred years ~90% of the local gene pool (54). The genetic evidence suggests that this process was mostly driven by male individuals (55) because in both the British Isles and Iberia, almost all Late Neolithic Y chromosomes were replaced by Eastern European steppe–related Y chromosomes
    These articles contain statements which are false.

    Today linguists attempt to reconstruct families like Afroasiatic which are supposed to be according to some 10 to 16k years old. A language that old could have been responsible for many features of PIE language especially typological and part of the lexicon. This language could have been spoken in Europe.

    But most IE languages, even European ones, are in many regards very different typologically and that is seen as the result of internal developments often but it would have been easier to explain if some influential European cultures were in fact non-IE.

    Typologically Slavic languages seem more similar to Late PIE (SOV, pro-drop, 3 genders, retention of the dual in some languages/dialects), whatever that may mean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    These articles contain statements which are false.
    ...
    Which specific statements in those papers are false? And what evidence do you have that contradicts them?
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