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Thread: So North Iran was the homeland of PIE?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    But does Hotu have CHG related admixture + something very different or what and what can that be? How these components are supposed to have formed?
    We are talking before Satsurblia, we are talking 20.000 years ago, nothing to do with linguistic at that point

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    We are talking before Satsurblia, we are talking 20.000 years ago, nothing to do with linguistic at that point
    Yes ok. I never connected 'Iranian-related' ancestry with any language either way. But do you think they share ancestry or not. You say they separated 20000 years ago?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    But does Hotu have CHG related admixture + something very different or what and what can that be? How these components are supposed to have formed?
    According to Lazaridis et.al., 2018 Iran_N is 50/50 ANE/Dzudzuana, and CHG is 38/62. So they share the same common ancestry, but in different proportions. I suspect things are actually much more complicated, but this is the rough picture.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancien...orth_Eurasians

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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    According to Lazaridis et.al., 2018 Iran_N is 50/50 ANE/Dzudzuana, and CHG is 38/62. So they share the same common ancestry, but in different proportions. I suspect things are actually much more complicated, but this is the rough picture.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancien...orth_Eurasians
    The preprint and the wikipedia articles say different things unsurprisingly. The preprint gives Zagros_N 21.8% ANE ancestry and CHG 22.2% ANE ancestry.
    Last edited by Aleph; 11-13-2021 at 03:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanenas View Post
    Yes ok. I never connected 'Iranian-related' ancestry with any language either way. But do you think they share ancestry or not. You say they separated 20000 years ago?
    Iran_N and CHG seem to have diverged around LGM (from one of the paper, don’t remember which one).

    The CHG related ancestry found in Yamnaya (from the 2018 papers), diverged from CHG after LGM and probably before Younger Dryas.

    As said by Laziridis in a tweet, this CHG like population has not been found yet.

    We have to assume that different CHG populations existed in the Caucasus. Not very surprising given that Wang et al found that Caucasus was +/- a genetic barrier.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 11-13-2021 at 11:10 AM.

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutut View Post
    In short, PIE has nothing to do with the “steppe” and the existing of the Anatolian branch is the proof for this, as the last paper on the Etruscans confirmed it. What else do you need to land and look at things impartially?
    How did the Etruscan paper confirm this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmokeefe View Post
    Here are two recent reviews that indicate Indo-European arrived in Europe in conjunction with a primarily male migration from the steppes. How do you reconcile your point of view with the evidence presented in the reviews and the papers they reference?

    The genetic and cultural impact of the Steppe migration into Europe
    The Steppe migration had a considerable impact on the genetic makeup of the Bronze Age European populations. The data suggest that the Steppe-related ancestry arriving into Central Europe was male-driven, dominantly in the Corded Ware culture populations and lesser in the Bell Beaker populations. In fact, there is no evidence that this migration had a significant input on the mitochondrial genetic pool of all European Bronze Age populations.
    ...
    In accordance with this large-scale population movement, the archaeological records show a discontinuity of some cultural practices and the subsequent introduction of new traditions and technologies from the Steppe all over Europe. In fact, the spread of the Steppe-related ancestry was not only along with the male genetic pool but also brought some important cultural changes such as horse riding, the spread of Indo-European languages, and change in burial practices (Anthony 2007; Furholt 2019). The change of material culture suggests the emergence of a new situation when Steppe migrants approached Neolithic communities, and started to interact with them mostly through intermating with Neolithic women (Kristiansen et al. 2017).

    Insights into human history from the first decade of ancient human genomics
    Around 4.9 ka, steppe ancestry [a mixture of at least two hunter-gatherer ancestries from present-day Russia (Eastern hunter-gatherers) and the Caucasus (Caucasus hunter-gatherers) (52)]—closest related to individuals that were found associated with the the Yamnaya culture, a cultural complex that spread across the entire Pontic-Caspian-Ural steppe region—expanded westward and eastward (Fig. 3) (53). This ancestry appeared in Central Europe and formed the population associated with the Corded Ware culture (hallmarked by cord-decorated ceramics) ~4.9 ka (53). It was suggested that Indo-European languages spread into Europe together with populations carrying steppe ancestry (53). Around 4.6 ka, individuals with steppe ancestry arrived in the British Isles, coinciding with the spread of the Bell Beaker Complex (defined by assemblages of stylized bell-shaped grave goods), replacing within a few hundred years ~90% of the local gene pool (54). The genetic evidence suggests that this process was mostly driven by male individuals (55) because in both the British Isles and Iberia, almost all Late Neolithic Y chromosomes were replaced by Eastern European steppe–related Y chromosomes

    Also, what's your evidence for "the distribution of mtdna in Europe is eloquent in contrast to the more diverse male dna." I'm familiar with several papers which claim evidence of exogamy/patrilocal patterns, especially in Bronze Age Europe. But you seem to be implying the opposite? Here's a couple of recent papers, their references show more of the same.

    Kinship and social organization in Copper Age Europe. A cross-disciplinary analysis of archaeology, DNA, isotopes, and anthropology from two Bell Beaker cemeteries
    While likely monogamous, they practiced exogamy, as six out of eight non-locals are women. Maternal genetic diversity is high with 23 different mitochondrial haplotypes from 34 individuals, whereas all males belong to one single Y-chromosome haplogroup without any detectable contribution from Y-chromosomes typical of the farmers who had been the sole inhabitants of the region hundreds of years before. This provides evidence for the society being patrilocal, perhaps as a way of protecting property among the male line, while in-marriage from many different places secured social and political networks and prevented inbreeding.

    Reconstructing genetic histories and social organisation in Neolithic and Bronze Age Croatia
    The relatively high mitochondrial haplotype diversity and very low Y chromosomal diversity among related males suggests the inhumed individuals belonged to a community characterised by female exogamy and adherence to a patrilocal social organisation,also observed at other Late Neolithic and Bronze Age cemeteries in Europe
    It does not matter the number of peppers you quote because they do not prove anything, but only suggest what is convenient for the authors.
    You confuse assumptions and probabilities with reality and scientifically proven facts. Even the authors are cautious and write "it was suggested" but you seem to be more confident than they are.

    There is nothing to prove this theory so far, there are no written sources for the spoken language or languages ​​of the steppe cultures.
    It is more likely that they did not speak IE languages ​​due to the direction they come from and the lack of necessary innovations, technologies associated with PIE.
    For example Haplogroup R-M 17 is widespread in Central Asian Turkic-speaking populations from East to West: Altaics, Uyghurs, Kirgisians, Selkups, Uzbekistanis, in eastern European Kazan Tatars, Bashkirs, in Finno-Ugric Finns / Suomi,
    Estonians, Hungarians, in Slavic Russians, Ukrainians, Poles...
    "As reported before [2, 45], the genetic contribution of
    European early farmers decreases along an axis from
    Southern Europe towards the Ural Mountains "
    "Similarly, Uralic-speaking Estonians form a cluster with Baltic-speaking Latvians and Lithuanians ('Europe 1' in Additional file 3: Figure S5), which also includes Mordovians and Russians."
    Do you think it is a coincidence that the only non-IE languages ​​in Europe today are spoken mainly in northern Europe: "The precursors of present-day FU
    languages ​​gradually spread west towards the Baltic Sea
    (Proto-Finnic) [13, 23], north-west (Proto-Saami) [24],
    north (Proto-Permian branch giving rise to Komi) [9],
    whereas some (Udmurt, Mordovian and Mari) remained
    in the Volga area. The precursors of the Ugric (Khanty,
    Mansi and Hungarian) and Samoyed languages ​​(e.g.
    Nenets, Nganasan, Selkup), spoken today mostly to the
    east of the Ural Mountains, but also in Central Europe
    (Hungarian) and in Northeast (NE) Europe (Nenets), are
    thought to have descended from the easternmost varieties
    of the Uralic proto-languages ​​spoken in western [18] or
    eastern [12] side of the Ural Mountains. "
    Draw your own conclusions.

    what is the percentage of the "steppe" DNA there and why do they still speak non Indo-European languages in Europe?
    Personally, I do not see any logic of associating the Indo-European language with the invasion from the steppes, given the knowledge of the languages ​​that are spoken and still spoken in these territories and given the late influence over the Russians by the Slavs and their Christianization. I don't see how Indo-European language can come from this direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutut View Post
    It does not matter the number of peppers you quote because they do not prove anything, but only suggest what is convenient for the authors.
    You confuse assumptions and probabilities with reality and scientifically proven facts. Even the authors are cautious and write "it was suggested" but you seem to be more confident than they are.

    There is nothing to prove this theory so far, there are no written sources for the spoken language or languages ​​of the steppe cultures.
    It is more likely that they did not speak IE languages ​​due to the direction they come from and the lack of necessary innovations, technologies associated with PIE.
    For example Haplogroup R-M 17 is widespread in Central Asian Turkic-speaking populations from East to West: Altaics, Uyghurs, Kirgisians, Selkups, Uzbekistanis, in eastern European Kazan Tatars, Bashkirs, in Finno-Ugric Finns / Suomi,
    Estonians, Hungarians, in Slavic Russians, Ukrainians, Poles...
    "As reported before [2, 45], the genetic contribution of
    European early farmers decreases along an axis from
    Southern Europe towards the Ural Mountains "
    "Similarly, Uralic-speaking Estonians form a cluster with Baltic-speaking Latvians and Lithuanians ('Europe 1' in Additional file 3: Figure S5), which also includes Mordovians and Russians."
    Do you think it is a coincidence that the only non-IE languages ​​in Europe today are spoken mainly in northern Europe: "The precursors of present-day FU
    languages ​​gradually spread west towards the Baltic Sea
    (Proto-Finnic) [13, 23], north-west (Proto-Saami) [24],
    north (Proto-Permian branch giving rise to Komi) [9],
    whereas some (Udmurt, Mordovian and Mari) remained
    in the Volga area. The precursors of the Ugric (Khanty,
    Mansi and Hungarian) and Samoyed languages ​​(e.g.
    Nenets, Nganasan, Selkup), spoken today mostly to the
    east of the Ural Mountains, but also in Central Europe
    (Hungarian) and in Northeast (NE) Europe (Nenets), are
    thought to have descended from the easternmost varieties
    of the Uralic proto-languages ​​spoken in western [18] or
    eastern [12] side of the Ural Mountains. "
    Draw your own conclusions.

    what is the percentage of the "steppe" DNA there and why do they still speak non Indo-European languages in Europe?
    Personally, I do not see any logic of associating the Indo-European language with the invasion from the steppes, given the knowledge of the languages ​​that are spoken and still spoken in these territories and given the late influence over the Russians by the Slavs and their Christianization. I don't see how Indo-European language can come from this direction.
    To base your arguments on modern populations is faulty in itself. That was acceptable pre-ancient DNA in 2015 because it was the next best thing.

    But unsurprisingly, even today all populations with substantial levels of R1a-M417 have substantial levels of Steppe/IE ancestry. Those that lack Siberian ancestry basically entirely, also speak an Indo-European tongue, with the exception of the Hungarians for whom it is easily explainable by multiple depopulation events in historic times but with Hungarian being the high status language.
    But R1b-M269 or at least certainly R1b-L151 is equally connected to Steppe ancestry as R1a-M417. Riddle me this, did it bring Uralic languages into Western, Northern and Southern Europe?

    That Uralic and Turkic populations roamed over the same geographic area millennia after PIE is obviously totally irrelevant.

    Even Carlos Quiles conceded by now that he was wrong with his Uralic theory, don’t even go there.

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    https://populationgenomics.blog/2019...rom-the-south/

    Chads qpgraph shows definite Iran and not CHG ancestry in piedmont steppe. Im also working on the same complex qpgraph project, hopefully i can validate or reject above conclusion soon.

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    So basically north East iranians are the true PIEs ? bunch of People from that area moved to West and East via steppe and settled in South Asia and Iran ?

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