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Thread: What are the implications of DF13's age and early branching ?

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    What are the implications of DF13's age and early branching ?

    There is a particular phenomenon related to DF13 seems fantastic in its extensiveness.

    We see blocks or string of SNPs for many ancient haplogroups. For instance, L21 has equivalents (so far) with Z245, Z290, Z260 and L459. I gather that these blocks of equivalents indicate bottlenecks of some sort where the other lineages that occurred and branched away but did not survive. This seems to be more of a rule than an exception for paternal lineages.

    However, we have not found any equivalents to DF13. I think we've had a couple of dozen L21 guys test with FGC and about 300 with Big Y and we no equivalents are yet found. We are finding more and older subclades under DF13, but no equivalents.

    Essentially, this means there are no SNP mutations between the L21/Z290/Z260/L459/Z245 MRCA and DF13 in the mappable regions of the Y.

    The implication is that L21 MRCA and DF13 descendant were separated by just a few generations. DF13 could have easily have personally known of the L21 MRCA.

    However, under DF13 there is no such bottleneck. The early expansion, or I should probably say the survivability of DF13's early expansion is quite extensive to say the least.

    There are a number of subclades (think subclade not single SNP) underneath DF13. Many have blocks or strings of equivalents but we designate them with lead SNP names such as DF21, DF41, DF49, L513, L1335, Z251, Z253, Z255, FGC11134 (above CTS4466), along with CTS1751, CTS3386, Z16500, Z16502, S1026, S1051, S16264, MC14, FGC5496 etc. There are many more DF13* guys out there so I expect some consolidation but we'll probably also see new subclades identified.

    What happened that gave DF13 such an expansive progeny that survived?

    [[ Edit: added SNPs ]]
    Last edited by TigerMW; 05-02-2014 at 04:38 PM.

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    My first thought is that it had no rivals and was 'first in' in the isles. The relatively remote location of the isles, the need for maritime skills and the complete lack of any pre-beaker metallurgy in the isles makes it different from many area.

    When you look at other areas, there are vast areas of Europe that did have a pre-beaker metal tradition including Iberia from shortly before 3000BC, southern France/Languedoc from just before that, Italy from at least 3500BC, the Alps from vary dates between 4000-3000BC, SE Europe long before that. Even corded ware groups in north-central Europe had metallurgy before beakers. Areas like Atlantic France and the Isles were not only completely lacking pre-beaker metallurgy but they were also areas with a lot of copper, tin and gold. So, you could say it was a perfect storm for beaker people being welcomed because they brought something entirely new to the table.

    Metal seems likely to be the key. However, I think given the isles was the main area that DF13 really took off in a huge way we cannot ignore the fact that maritime skills were crucial. The combination of beaker metallurgy and maritime skills suitable for northern seas was probably something that land locked groups could not claim to possess. Its still a challenge to work out exactly who and where these skills came together but somehow metallurgical knowledge and maritime skills had to combine somewhere to make this possible. The lack of maritime skills and location is IMO probably the main reason U152 made little impact on the isles in comparison.

    If I had to guess where metallurgical skills and maritime knowledge that allowed DF13 to do so well in the isles came together I would say somewhere between NW France and the Rhine. I tend to think NW France was crucial because it was the easiest way to get to the main early beaker source in Ross Island SW Ireland and also the Irish gold sources. It was a special source too as it was arsenical copper which was as hard as bronze - very rare in the isles. The distribution of isles-made beaker era metal products also points to NW France as part of its network. It seems to have been a crucial location where eastern and western influences met. However, its also clear that the Rhenish area was part of the network that linked to the isles and I tend to think middlemen in southern and eastern Britain linked the metal areas of the west to the Rhine area and culturally seemed more directly linked to the latter area than the actual metal ore areas in Ireland and the west. The best guess for parallels with the Irish beaker phenomenon point tentatively to NW France in terms of tomb types, pottery and distribution of beaker metalwork. Case even suggests some aspects of Irish beaker point to NW France. At the same time a lot of Irish beaker looks like British-Rhenish types so its complex and clearly there was some sort of network that went from the ore sources in Ireland through British middlemen who were in turn strongly connected to the Rhine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    There is a particular phenomenon related to DF13 seems fantastic in its extensiveness.

    We see blocks or string of SNPs for many ancient haplogroups. For instance, L21 has equivalents (so far) with Z245, Z290, Z260 and L459. I gather that these blocks of equivalents indicate bottlenecks of some sort where the other lineages that occurred and branched away but did not survive. This seems to be more of a rule than an exception for paternal lineages.

    However, we have not found any equivalents to DF13. I think we've had a couple of dozen L21 guys test with FGC and about 300 with Big Y and we no equivalents are yet found. We are finding more and older subclades under DF13, but no equivalents.

    Essentially, this means there are no SNP mutations between the L21/Z290/Z260/L459/Z245 MRCA and DF13 in the mappable regions of the Y.

    The implication is that L21 MRCA and DF13 descendant were separated by just a few generations. DF13 could have easily have personally known of the L21 MRCA.

    However, under DF13 there is no such bottleneck. The early expansion, or I should probably say the survivability of DF13's early expansion is quite extensive to say the least.

    There are a number of subclades (think subclade not single SNP) underneath DF13. Many have blocks or strings of equivalents but we designate them with lead SNP names such as DF21, DF41, DF49, L513, L1335, Z251, Z253, Z255, FGC11134 (above CTS4466), along with CTS1751, CTS3386, Z16500, Z16502, S1026, S1051, S16264, MC14, FGC5496, etc. There are many more DF13* guys out there so I expect some consolidation but we'll probably also see new subclades identified.

    What happened that gave DF13 such an expansive progeny that survived?
    Last edited by TigerMW; 05-02-2014 at 04:39 PM. Reason: MW: fixed quote of himself

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    To put it more simply there was a kind of a loop of beaker connections that went (with no certain starting point) Rhine-Britain-Ireland-NW France-Rhine-Britain-Ireland NW France etc. I would say the archaeological evidence best fits the direction of the network as

    Rhine-NW France (contacts between two areas apparent even pre-beaker)

    NW France-Ireland (similarity in beaker era tomb types and possibly pottery)

    Ireland/Britain to NW France (distribution of Irish and British metalwork in NW France)

    Britain to Rhine (strong Rhenish cultural influences despite use of Irish metal)

    Britain to Ireland (much Irish beaker is of the British-Rhenish sort)

    That IMO is why the way beaker manifests itself in the isles and adjacent continent is complicated with a varying mix of Atlantic and Rhenish influences. In classic archaeological vagueness its easy to see the network but hard to see the starting point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    My first thought is that it had no rivals and was 'first in' in the isles. The relatively remote location of the isles, the need for maritime skills and the complete lack of any pre-beaker metallurgy in the isles makes it different from many area. ...
    I agree the green fields "no rivals" type of situation is a viable alternative.

    Another thing I think could be a bit of the reciprocal. That would be not that DF13 was so successful but that most of DF13's cousins and brothers suffered some ill fate somewhere, such as in France. The ill fate could be someone like Julius Caesar possibly to be later followed by folks coming across the Rhine from the east.

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    Mike, I guess FGC5496 is the etc. ?

    Late Bronze and Iron in NW Europe along with maritime trade ability appears to provide the best overall catalyst to DF13's massive expansion from 1500bc forward.

    In an unpublished dissertation:

    Re-evaluating Iron Age maritime societies: the North West Iberian Peninsula
    by Rodrigo Pacheco Ruiz

    https://www.academia.edu/437627/Re-e...rian_Peninsula


    "There is no better way to approach the problem of our concern than by first considering Cunliffe’s work for the

    Revista de Guimar„aes

    entitled ‘Atlantic Sea-ways’. He argues that a key role the NW Iberian Peninsula is thought to have rendered was as a ‘stepping-stone’, in a world of social relationships from the Late Bronze Age to the Early Roman Period. Of course, one cannot begin to comprehend NW Iberia’s role, without first considering Cunliffe’s last idea in this epigraph: the ongoing uncertainty of assuming any kind of open sea connection with the rest of the Atlantic economic world. Cunliffe stresses both the importance of this region to the study of maritime archaeology and at the same time, the level of uncertainty that surrounds its exact role within an Atlantic maritime system.

    ...

    2.1.1

    Bronze Age metal trade and the Atlantic influence

    The Bronze Age has been considered by several authors (Cunliffe, 1999) to be theclimax of maritime relationships between the Atlantic communities and the NW Iberian Peninsula. This viewpoint is clearly based largely on the evidence for involvement in the metal trade system. The concept of a ‘global economy’, directed Kristiansen’s (1994) research towards the Late Bronze Age metal production centres, such as southern England, Ireland, northwestern France and northwestern Iberia, together with Portugal, which he argues show some relation through a common metal tradition. Cunliffe (1999: 96-97) presents evidence for NW Iberian artefacts, such as the seventh to fifth centuries disc-footed fibulae and the antennae-hilted swords, which are rarely found outside this place of origin, actually being recovered in the south-west of Britain at sites such as Mount Batten and Harlyn Bay. This, he argues, points to a basic maritime relationship between these two areas, probably related to the tin industry, stressing the special bond that the Atlantic cultures had with NW Iberia.This proposed link could also be extended to the roundhouse building tradition and language similarities"

    Overall good piece of information.

    MJost
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1ís fatherís sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

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    I don't recall the earliest evidence of the manufacture and consumption of alcoholic beverages in the Isles and NW Europe in general, but I wonder what part the Beaker Folk played in that. The ability to summon the "spirits" must have been a tremendous advantage to those who possessed it.

    So, I suggest the name of the first DF13+ man is actually known and celebrated. It was Charlie Mops.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MJost View Post
    Mike, I guess FGC5496 is the etc. ?
    Sorry, oversight... fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by MJost View Post
    Late Bronze and Iron in NW Europe along with maritime trade ability appears to provide the best overall catalyst to DF13's massive expansion from 1500bc forward.

    In an unpublished dissertation:

    Re-evaluating Iron Age maritime societies: the North West Iberian Peninsula
    by Rodrigo Pacheco Ruiz

    https://www.academia.edu/437627/Re-e...rian_Peninsula
    ....
    In this scenario, would the surprisingly heavy dose of L21 in the Bologna, Italy area be due to an Atlantic back to the Mediterranean connection or due to a eastward migration from Transalpine Gaul over land?

    I guess it would be important to know if the L21 in N. Italy was predominately DF13+ or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Sorry, oversight... fixed.

    In this scenario, would the surprisingly heavy dose of L21 in the Bologna, Italy area be due to an Atlantic back to the Mediterranean connection or due to a eastward migration from Transalpine Gaul over land?

    I guess it would be important to know if the L21 in N. Italy was predominately DF13+ or not.
    Good question. That would be a great new research project. Maybe they should log in and get opinions from posting community as to what SNPs to test for.

    Thx for the fix... Maybe we need a size by nodes ranking.


    MJost
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1ís fatherís sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I don't recall the earliest evidence of the manufacture and consumption of alcoholic beverages in the Isles and NW Europe in general, but I wonder what part the Beaker Folk played in that. The ability to summon the "spirits" must have been a tremendous advantage to those who possessed it.

    So, I suggest the name of the first DF13+ man is actually known and celebrated. It was Charlie Mops.


    You were posting several years ago that the aspect of "Maritime Bell Beaker predates the Atlantic Bronze Age Network, but what I meant was that network was of long standing before it reached its peak about 1300 BC - 700 BC."

    Can you repost your thoughts updated with all the recent knowledge?

    MJost
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1ís fatherís sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

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    Quote Originally Posted by MJost View Post
    You were posting several years ago that the aspect of "Maritime Bell Beaker predates the Atlantic Bronze Age Network, but what I meant was that network was of long standing before it reached its peak about 1300 BC - 700 BC."

    Can you repost your thoughts updated with all the recent knowledge?

    MJost
    Whoa! That would be a long post!

    Honestly, I don't even remember posting that.

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