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Thread: Copper Age-Bronze Age transition in southern Iberia

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luso View Post
    can we not start this here... LMAO. Don't be ridiculous primo... back to genetics now, or at least snps discussion at the very highest.
    Yeah, I got a couple of family members who are red haired, and as far as I know, they only have Iberian ancestry.

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  3. #182
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    There is another controversial prediction in mtDNA supplement table: ALM037 is C4a2b2 a subclade only common in Tibet created 4,300 years BP (Yfull mtree). They are excluded this sample out of full list of supplement table 2. There are several C4a2a and C4a2c in Mongolia Bronze Age though if this sample is so conflictive we can wonder why Vanessa Villalba-Mouco has published mitocondrial sequenceÇ
    SORRY, I answer myself with this data of supplement text
    ALM037 (Arc. ID: AY034): Adult female burial directly dated to 2016-1781
    cal BCE (3567 ± 27, MAMS-25794). Individual excluded from population
    genomic analysis due to <40000 SNP coverage
    Therefore, this eastern eurasian subclade is real with 91% confidence. We could speculate with a direct maternal connection with Eastern Yamnaya about 4,400 BP with Central Europe R-P312 Steppe Herders, in fact, Villalba-Mouco explains in this paper they are discovered maternal side steppe ancestry by X chromosome analysis, not only men carried steppe ancestry but several women in their nuclear clan before great western expansion
    Last edited by Miqui Rumba; 11-23-2021 at 08:53 AM.

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  5. #183
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    Not trying to make this political, but a lot of the research on El Argar always points back to the alleged "high" status of women. Obviously this is a modern viewpoint looking at an ancient culture. Far too often when women aren't depicted as superheros flying around in a cape in the modern age, we are led to believe they are somehow inferior to men. You can still have traditional gender roles while having women in important positions. I've never understood the argument that when men are seen as the core warrior class, this made them superior to females. In some ways it could be argued that this is a detriment, and would certainly lead to a shorter life span, and very little time to spend with raising or even seeing their children. This may have also been a female responsibility. Again this should not be considered a disadvantage as somehow an "inferior" position.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster 1100 BC
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  7. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Not trying to make this political, but a lot of the research on El Argar always points back to the alleged "high" status of women. Obviously this is a modern viewpoint looking at an ancient culture.
    I am agree. I often find that the conclusions drawn by archeologists specialized on El Argar (especially Lull) are very politically biased. Women status as depicted is problematic (I am sorry, but most burials are showing a clear difference between men and women, and women seem clearly to have an inferior status to men. It is clear from the double burials). As the absence of religion: very dubious. People were buried with grave goods, so believed in afterlife. So, did have beliefs aka religion. Structured religion is another question. And so on.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 11-25-2021 at 10:16 AM.

  8. #185
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    Do we have the G25 of those new guys ?

  9. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Western Iberia is ZZ12, and Z195+ is predominantly in eastern Iberia. Why did these groups separate? Did they arrive separately? Balearic and Sicilian aDNA seems to be Z195+ as well if I'm not mistaken.
    Where are you getting your stats from?

  10. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    1. The samples are out, but the paper is not, so no reference to where the samples are from, their age etc.
    2. Below I took a first stab at R1b versus non-R1b, so don't take these as final. Even that took 4 hours of my weekend, so I will not be looking at the in any more detail in the foreseeable future.
    3. Obviously the massive founder effect they mention in the abstract is R-DF27 > Z195

    Genomic transformation and social organization during the Copper Age-Bronze Age transition in southern Iberia
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/vi...907?show=reads

    Abstract: The emerging Bronze Age (BA) of southeastern Iberia saw dramatic social changes. Late Copper Age (CA) settlements were abandoned in favor of hilltop sites, and collective graves were largely replaced by single or double burials with often distinctive grave goods indirectly reflecting a hierarchical social organization, as exemplified by the BA El Argar group. We explored this transition from a genomic viewpoint by tripling the amount of data available for this period. Concomitant with the rise of El Argar starting ~2200 cal BCE, we observe a complete turnover of Y-chromosome lineages along with the arrival of Steppe-related ancestry. This pattern is consistent with a founder effect in male lineages, supported by our finding that males shared more relatives at sites than females. However, simple two-source models do not find support in some El Argar groups, suggesting additional genetic contributions from the Mediterranean that could predate the Bronze Age.
    I haven't had time to look at the bam files but I have just found time to look at the table from the supplementary file. There are 17 P312 and 23 Z195 samples. There is a column for yCoverage (yCov). The average coverage for the P312 samples is 0.317. The average coverage for the Z195 samples is 0.631. So the Z195 samples have almost double the coverage of the P312. Also the P312 samples have a slightly lower percentage of petrous bone as the sampled material. 64% vs 73%.

    Were any of those P312 samples negative for Z195 or was the coverage too low for a read?

    edit: I have looked at a few P312 BAM files and so far no read for Z195 on those. I wish these had been shotgun sequenced so that we could have found other DF27 SNPs not included in the 1240k if there were reads on them. Since GPBVK is dated to 2461-2299 and all of these are younger than that. Most of them should have at least one additional SNP downstream from DF27.
    Last edited by ArmandoR1b; 11-25-2021 at 11:31 PM.

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  12. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    edit: I have looked at a few P312 BAM files and so far no read for Z195 on those. I wish these had been shotgun sequenced so that we could have found other DF27 SNPs not included in the 1240k if there were reads on them. Since GPBVK is dated to 2461-2299 and all of these are younger than that. Most of them should have at least one additional SNP downstream from DF27.
    Agreed. David Reich talks about this in one of his talks this year. He kind of brags about the 1240K concept because it is a big cost saver. They just plain couldn't have done the shotgun sequencing.
    This is one of the reasons I encourage people to make sure their terminal haplogroups are documented on a Y tree - so they can be eligible (known about) for these kinds of "efficient" testing methods.
    There is good news, though. Reich has gotten support from people who are willing to fund shotgun sequencing. I don't know how far that goes.

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  14. #189
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    [QUOTE=There is good news, though. Reich has gotten support from people who are willing to fund shotgun sequencing. I don't know how far that goes.[/QUOTE]

    TigerMW

    How good is shotgun sequencing on the Y-Chromosome verse a targeted Y-DNA test such as Y-Elite or BigY? With our interest in uncovering as many of the Y-SNPs as we can from ancient DNA samples which would be the preferred testing method to raise fund for. Thanks Tim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelso View Post
    TigerMW

    How good is shotgun sequencing on the Y-Chromosome verse a targeted Y-DNA test such as Y-Elite or BigY? With our interest in uncovering as many of the Y-SNPs as we can from ancient DNA samples which would be the preferred testing method to raise fund for. Thanks Tim
    They should just apply this:
    Here we introduce a new DNA enrichment assay, coined YMCA (Y-mappable capture assay),
    that targets the "mappable" regions of the NRY. We show that compared to low-coverage shotgun
    sequencing and 1240K capture, YMCA significantly improves the coverage and number of sites
    hit on the NRY, increasing the number of Y-haplogroup informative SNPs, and allowing for the
    identification of previously undiscovered variants.
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...761v1.full.pdf

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post750863

    Its really the state of the art in this field talking about haplogroups and should be applied in all future studies.
    Last edited by Riverman; Yesterday at 10:31 AM.

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