Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 57

Thread: How likely is it that Yamnaya wasn't IE-speaking, but rather something Caucasian?

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    173
    Sex
    Omitted

    How likely is it that Yamnaya wasn't IE-speaking, but rather something Caucasian?

    Hi all,

    I remember Davidski once mentioning in of his blogposts about IE Y-dna that it is possible that Yamnaya might not have been IE-speaking at all, but rather possibly either Northwest or Northeast Caucasian (can't remember which). I was wondering how likely this is. Davidski is obviously very knowledgeable, but I believe that no one person can be the end-all-be-all of knowledge, which is why I'm also asking you guys' opinion.

    So, how likely is it that Yamnaya wasn't IE-speaking, but rather something Caucasian? And if they possibly were, would that mean that R1b-Z2103 isn't a Indo-European marker at all?

    Also, I must admit I'm not very knowledgeable on this subject, but would R1b-M269 be an IE-marker, or would one it's descendants be that?
    Last edited by bovefex; 11-22-2021 at 10:27 AM.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to bovefex For This Useful Post:

     JoeyP37 (11-23-2021)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,155
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>U152>Z56>Z145
    mtDNA (M)
    W5a2

    Netherlands
    Personally I would find it unlikely if Yamnaya was not (largely) Indo-European speaking; there is a close relationship between L51 and Z2103, there are close autosomal ties with CWC and archaeological ones with the likely PIE Sredny Stog.

  4. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Pylsteen For This Useful Post:

     alchemist223 (11-24-2021),  Andour (11-22-2021),  Arlus (11-22-2021),  bovefex (11-22-2021),  JoeyP37 (11-23-2021),  Michał (11-22-2021),  VladimirTaraskin (11-22-2021)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,475
    Sex

    If it wasn't PIE, which is quite possible, it was what we might call "Para-PIE", so a closely related dialect. So far I know of no group which has a direct, proven descendence from Yamnaya only and spoke an attested IE language. All the known languages are proven to be derived from Corded Ware or being more likely to have been spread by related Western steppe groups, like Cernavoda-Usatovo related groups in particular, from the Corded decorated horizon in the Western steppe and Balkans. Its possible for some languages to be Yamnaya derived, but the evidence is in no way as unequivocal as in the Corded Ware cases.
    But then again, because of the same origin as Corded Ware and related Western groups from the Sredny Stog source, its also unlikely they spoke a very different language, belonged to an unrelated language group.

  6. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     Arlus (11-22-2021),  bovefex (11-22-2021),  Chnodomar (11-22-2021),  JoeyP37 (11-23-2021),  MethCat (11-22-2021),  Ruderico (11-22-2021)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    474
    Sex

    Greece
    Some NEC groups have Yamnaya related Y-DNA and significant 'steppe admixture'. 'R1b' is around 40% in Tabasarans. Other groups have very little though. Proto-NEC speakers should have had J1 too (and it could have been Kura-Araxes related, afair there was a Kura-Araxes J1 sample from Dagestan near the Caspian sea).

    Nakhs imho have Y-DNA that originally was not NEC but either Kartvelian or something else and they are a case of adopting the language of their women.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Kanenas For This Useful Post:

     bovefex (11-22-2021),  JoeyP37 (11-23-2021)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    146

    I find it extremely unlikely that any native Caucasian languages stem from Yamnaya. Dagestanis have a very large chunk of Yamnaya ancestry true, but overall as a singular group their J Y-DNA overwhelms R1b to the point where their Steppe related mtDNA is greater than Steppe related Y-DNA. NEC more than likely arose in the Kura-Araxes culture, which could also be the main reason why there are some similarities between NEC and Hurro-Urartian. Northwest Caucasians on the other hand have no relation to Yamnaya be it autosomally or Y-DNA wise, whatever Steppe they have was mediated through Scythians and Turkics.

    Nakh used to be like Dags but they have received a Circassian-like influx that is possibly dated to the early Alan period. I say this because Northeast Georgians historically had tight relations with Nakh, you can even see this by their Y-DNA, yet autosomally their non Kartvelian input is more similar to Dags than to contemporary Nakh groups. I derived a ghost and found out that this non Kartvelian input of Northeast Georgians actually can be used to model contemporary Nakh, ie it's probably some archaic Nakh ancestor that was untouched by Circassian-like input.

    Target: Georgian_Khevs
    Distance: 0.0000% / 0.00000001
    58.0 Georgian_Kart
    42.0 NEG_NEC_ghost

    Target: Chechen
    Distance: 1.1737% / 0.01173735
    53.4 NEG_NEC_ghost
    37.6 Circassian
    9.0 Georgian_Kart

    Target: Ingushian
    Distance: 1.0708% / 0.01070776
    55.6 Circassian
    30.2 NEG_NEC_ghost
    14.2 Georgian_Kart

    Target: Chechen
    Distance: 1.2527% / 0.01252654
    53.6 NEG_NEC_ghost
    42.0 Circassian
    4.4 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA

    Target: Ingushian
    Distance: 1.1927% / 0.01192671
    61.4 Circassian
    29.4 NEG_NEC_ghost
    9.2 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA


    Distance to: NEG_NEC_ghost
    0.02831961 Tabasaran
    0.02845018 Lak
    0.02857238 Avar
    0.02914101 Kubachinian
    0.03027032 Chechen
    0.03357339 Kaitag
    0.03430426 Darginian
    0.04015451 Ingushian
    0.04838200 Adygei
    0.05267517 Kumyk
    0.05343723 Balkar
    0.05647162 Ossetian
    0.05691931 North_Ossetian
    Last edited by Korotyr; 11-22-2021 at 01:39 PM.

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Korotyr For This Useful Post:

     Arlus (11-22-2021),  bovefex (11-22-2021),  MethCat (11-22-2021),  Toguz (11-23-2021)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    173
    Sex
    Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    All the known languages are proven to be derived from Corded Ware or being more likely to have been spread by related Western steppe groups, like Cernavoda-Usatovo related groups in particular, from the Corded decorated horizon in the Western steppe and Balkans.
    If I remember correctly, R1b-Z2103 seems to be more common in the Balkans, Anatolia and Armenia than R1b-L51, which seems to have been one of the two major CW paternal lineages. If what you said is true, how come R1b-Z2103 is more common in these regions?

    Thanks for your detailed response by the way!

  12. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    287

    There is a possibility that Greek, Armenian, Albanian are directly descended from Yamnaya through a culture like KMK/Babino, however, more aDNA evidence is needed to make any strong inferences.

  13. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Psynome For This Useful Post:

     Ariel90 (11-22-2021),  Arlus (11-22-2021),  bovefex (11-22-2021),  MethCat (11-22-2021),  Michał (11-22-2021),  Principe (11-22-2021),  theplayer (11-22-2021),  VladimirTaraskin (11-22-2021)

  14. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,475
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by bovefex View Post
    If I remember correctly, R1b-Z2103 seems to be more common in the Balkans, Anatolia and Armenia than R1b-L51, which seems to have been one of the two major CW paternal lineages. If what you said is true, how come R1b-Z2103 is more common in these regions?

    Thanks for your detailed response by the way!
    The Yamnaya did raid and take (settle would be the wrong term in their case) various parts of Pannonia and Bulgaria, which are best suited for the more pastoralist groups within their range. However, what we see is that these were very pastoralist people, which did raid and dominate for a time, but later being incorporated or transitioned into a more settled way of life. They didn't found the cultures which seem to have spread, but rather, in combination with local Copper Age and Corded-related groups, formed new entities which spread. Therefore, there is no direct continuity from a Yamnaya group, to a culture clearly associated with any IE speaking people. They came, they were people apart, some lineages survived and played a role in fused people, but its not Yamnay -> culture X -> language Y.
    That's not there, imho.
    The cultures in which they still might have been dominant, or well-represented, didn't survive unaltered and unchanged into the historical period. Take for example the Mokrin samples: It was a complex mixture of elements, not just R-Z2103 and this specific group seems to have been, if not a dead end, at least not surviving as an unchanged entity. Too many pushes, migrations, mixtures etc. in between, to make it look like a good candidate for an attested IE language. And its pretty much the same for others.
    Like even if Greek got a lot from R-Z2103, probably, until we know when exactly it came down and who brought the Greek language, it might very well have been a group transformed by other elements, like Multi-Cordoned Ware. But at this point Greek and Armenian are among the hottest candidates for a Yamnaya derived language. But then again, it depends on the exact date of the Greek shift.
    If Proto-Greeks came with chariots in the MBA-LBA and being closer related to already Sintashta-related/-influenced groups, there goes the direct link.
    Last edited by Riverman; 11-22-2021 at 02:20 PM.

  15. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     altvred (11-22-2021),  Arlus (11-22-2021),  bovefex (11-22-2021),  Psynome (11-22-2021),  VladimirTaraskin (11-22-2021)

  16. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,560
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a29a

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by bovefex View Post
    If I remember correctly, R1b-Z2103 seems to be more common in the Balkans, Anatolia and Armenia than R1b-L51, which seems to have been one of the two major CW paternal lineages. If what you said is true, how come R1b-Z2103 is more common in these regions?

    Thanks for your detailed response by the way!
    You shouldn't put too much emphasis on Y haplogroups. You can link Y haplogroups to migration but not usually to specific cultures.

    Yamnaya were mostly R1b Z2013, and at least I2 L699. Some Yamnaya settled in Balkans (Thrace, Bulgaria,...) and in Hungary.

    But their legacy is uncertain, and it is not sure at all that they left any existing language.

    In any case, it would seem strange to link them to non IE from the Caucasus.

  17. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     altvred (11-22-2021),  Arlus (11-22-2021),  bovefex (11-22-2021),  R.Rocca (11-22-2021),  Riverman (11-22-2021),  Ruderico (11-22-2021)

  18. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,329
    Sex
    Location
    Brazil
    Ethnicity
    Rio de Janeiro Colonial
    Nationality
    Brazilian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1a1 FGC6064+ M365+
    mtDNA (M)
    H1ao1a

    Suebi Kingdom Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazilian Empire Brazil
    Yamnaya language would share the same ancient Indo-European substratum as Tati, Talysh, Mazandarani and Gilaki languages sharing certain typological features with Southern Caucasian languages because they had the same Caspian genetic origin.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal
    North_Swedish + PT + PT + PT @ 3.96 EUtest 4

  19. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to RCO For This Useful Post:

     bovefex (11-22-2021),  parasar (11-22-2021),  R.Rocca (11-22-2021)

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Genetically speaking who are the Alawites?
    By Artorias21956 in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-18-2021, 08:37 PM
  2. Just got told I was IP banned, and then wasn't?
    By Censored in forum Forum Support
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-22-2020, 04:32 AM
  3. Replies: 24
    Last Post: 04-19-2018, 10:52 AM
  4. Genetically Speaking, You’re More Like Your Dad (?)
    By Tomenable in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-28-2016, 06:48 PM
  5. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10-12-2015, 12:59 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •