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Thread: How likely is it that Yamnaya wasn't IE-speaking, but rather something Caucasian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    It's two Bell Beaker samples. This is the second:

    Sample I6581, R-L2+ 2455–2145 calBCE (3825±35 BP, Poz-66185) Kornice, Poland
    From Olalde et al 2018: "Poirier’s facet, often observed in horse riders, is evident."

    From the archaeological paper for the same sample:

    This male led an active lifestyle, and the pathologies and
    nonmetric traits observed on his skeletal remains indicate
    the repetition of certain activities since juvenility. Lesions
    on the femora, tibiae, and humeri may, for example, suggest
    horseback riding in a sitting position with the support of
    arms behind the back, frequent standing on the toes while
    reaching for high objects and lengthy episodes of game
    hunting with a bow in hand.
    I've been reading about El Argar. I would expect some evidence that they had horses whereas the prior Los Millares did not.

    I did find this, but I'll go back to the SE Iberian EBA/MBA paper.

    "According to genetic analysis carried out at the Max Planck Institute, the people buried in the grave were contemporaries and died at almost the same time. They were not related, but they had a daughter who was found buried next to them. The woman had several congenital anomalies, as well as marks on her ribs that could indicate a lung infection at the time of death. Meanwhile, the man had bone wear and tear, indicating intense physical activity, possibly horseback riding."
    https://usfreenews.com/ancient-socie...llowed-orders/
    Last edited by TigerMW; 11-24-2021 at 01:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    I've been reading about El Argar. I would expect some evidence that they had horses whereas the prior Los Millares did not. I've haven't seen anything though.
    I thought I saw something about at least one grave showing evidence of horse riding in el Argar. I have to dig it up though
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster 1100 BC
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    It's two Bell Beaker samples. This is the second:

    Sample I6581, R-L2+ 2455–2145 calBCE (3825±35 BP, Poz-66185) Kornice, Poland
    From Olalde et al 2018: "Poirier’s facet, often observed in horse riders, is evident."

    From the archaeological paper for the same sample:

    This male led an active lifestyle, and the pathologies and
    nonmetric traits observed on his skeletal remains indicate
    the repetition of certain activities since juvenility. Lesions
    on the femora, tibiae, and humeri may, for example, suggest
    horseback riding in a sitting position with the support of
    arms behind the back, frequent standing on the toes while
    reaching for high objects and lengthy episodes of game
    hunting with a bow in hand.
    To add: the I0805 sample from Quedlinburg is also R-L151 and "likely" PF6658 which is below U152. He has mixed reads at PF6658 (DYZ19 - 1A:1G) like all PF6658+ men.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  7. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    What have I missed? What do we know about this upcoming paper?
    Afaik was among the abstracts for the EAA 2021, unfortunately I can't find the exact link ad hoc, even though I posted it already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    I thought I saw something about at least one grave showing evidence of horse riding in el Argar. I have to dig it up though
    Sample ALM039, R1b1a1b1a1a2a1-Z195+
    Period: Argar 3rd phase (1740 - 1533 cal BC, lab code MAMS-22231)

    This is for lab code MAMS-22231 from another paper: The male exhibits a traumatic injury to the left squamous portion of the frontal bone, which had fully healed long before death. The individual also exhibits activity-related skeletal markers, defined by roughed surfaces of muscle attachment sites, upper limb asymmetry and robusticity, and extensive lower limb remodelling associated with bilateral flexion of the hip and knee joints, abduction of the legs and the need to stabilise the pelvis. All of these indicators point to intensive, long-term physical activity, and are possibly consistent with horse riding (Molleson & Blondiaux Reference Molleson and Blondiaux1994; Capasso et al. Reference Capasso, Kennedy and Wilczak1999).

    Source: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...C6D4F2C3981C2F
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 11-24-2021 at 02:08 AM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    I've been reading about El Argar. I would expect some evidence that they had horses whereas the prior Los Millares did not.

    I did find this, but I'll go back to the SE Iberian EBA/MBA paper.

    "According to genetic analysis carried out at the Max Planck Institute, the people buried in the grave were contemporaries and died at almost the same time. They were not related, but they had a daughter who was found buried next to them. The woman had several congenital anomalies, as well as marks on her ribs that could indicate a lung infection at the time of death. Meanwhile, the man had bone wear and tear, indicating intense physical activity, possibly horseback riding."
    https://usfreenews.com/ancient-socie...llowed-orders/
    West Yamnaya settlers like Early Bell Beakers: R1b-P310 and R1b-Z2103.
    https://indo-european.eu/2020/08/wes...and-r1b-z2103/

    Informal report by Bulgarian archaeologist Svetoslav Stamov in 7/8 TV, from data collected by the Reich Lab for their future paper on South-Eastern Europe.

    Has there been anymore news about Bulgaria Yamnaya being R1b-P310 and horse connection?


    The origins and spread of domestic horses from the Western Eurasian steppes
    Curious because the last
    The origins of DOM2 horses
    The C-PONT group not only possessed moderate NEO-ANA ancestry, but also was the first region where the typical DOM2 ancestry component (coloured orange in Fig. 1e, f) became dominant during the sixth millennium BC. Multi-dimensional scaling further identified three horses from the western lower Volga-Don region as genetically closest to DOM2, associated with Steppe Maykop (Aygurskii), Yamnaya (Repin) and Poltavka (Sosnovka) contexts, dated to about 3500 to 2600 BC (Figs. 2a, b, 3a). Additionally, genetic continuity with DOM2 was rejected for all horses predating about 2200 BC, especially those from the NEO-ANA group (Supplementary Table 2), except for two late Yamnaya specimens from approximately 2900 to 2600 BC (Turganik (TURG)), located further east than the western lower Volga-Don region (Figs. 2a, b, 3a). These may therefore have provided some of the direct ancestors of DOM2 horses.
    What are the branches of R1b-L51 in Csepel Island, besides r1b-Z2109?
    https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.c...antas-six.html

    @50:35 possible new paper signs of horse riding Dom2, pitty they did not test R1b-L51 Afanasievo horses, Catacombe horses, Csepel Island horses.


    @49:36 possible connecting networks Z2109-L51?.
    Last edited by Silesian; 11-24-2021 at 11:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    What have I missed? What do we know about this upcoming paper?
    https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa202...?Abstract=2323

    Title: Insights into admixture history and social practices in the prehistoric Aegean from ancient DNA

    Content: European genetic history went through major transformations during the Neolithic and Bronze Age. Despite the significance of the Aegean for European prehistory, preservation challenges have hindered a comprehensive understanding of human mobility and population dynamics in this region through time. In this paper, we present insights from ancient DNA (genome-wide) analyses on Early Neolithic and Bronze Age individuals from Mainland Greece, Crete and the Aegean islands. Our results indicate multi-phased genetic shifts in the Aegean populations since the early Neolithic that can be traced to populations related to Anatolia and then, during the Late Bronze Age, to Central-Eastern Europe. Besides the long-lasting biological connections with these adjacent regions, we also found that Bronze Age Aegeans exhibited endogamy in high frequencies so far unobserved in the rest of the ancient West Eurasia. These close-kin marital practices, likely equivalent to first-cousins unions, were substantially higher in Crete and other Aegean islands than in Mainland Greece. Our study highlights the potential of novel biomolecular methods to unravel the interplay of genetic admixture and cultural entanglements in the Aegean and beyond.
    I doubt it's going to have any evidence of chariots coming from the north in the LBA, though. By the Late Bronze Age Greeks would've already known about chariots from the east.

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  15. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    I doubt it's going to have any evidence of chariots coming from the north in the LBA, though. By the Late Bronze Age Greeks would've already known about chariots from the east.
    Thanks for the paper, but I wouldn't be that sure. Note that roughly about the same time many movements of chariot people happened in Europe. It had an impact even on Central Europe itself, because it was long speculated that the collapse of the Unetice culture too might be related to chariot people from the East, at least as a contributing factor. It seems similar to Urnfield Naue II and iron swordfighters, the introduction of chariots triggered a chain reaction which caused a migration period. Its very likely that Proto-Greeks were part of it, one way or another, and be it just by being pushed from a more steppe-like environment.

    These technological and military shifts were oftentimes big triggers and there are two dates connected to Central-Eastern Europe for the Greeks:
    - 1.600 BC (advanced Bronze technology, mass production of bronze weapons and tools and introduction of chariots, improved cavalry)
    - 1.200 BC (fully casted Naue II-type slashing swords, improved spearheads, mobile and close quarter infantry tactics, introduction of iron weapons and better cavalry, new religion and ethos derived from Urnfield culture)

    Its not by chance that both those shifts caused major migrations and both helped to bring and spread Greek speakers into what is now Greece. The next shift was about 900-800 BC with the widespread usage of iron weapons and better horses, cavalry tactics, introduced by the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, transforming into Hallstatt.
    Last edited by Riverman; 11-25-2021 at 11:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Thanks for the paper, but I wouldn't be that sure. Note that roughly about the same time many movements of chariot people happened in Europe. It had an impact even on Central Europe itself, because it was long speculated that the collapse of the Unetice culture too might be related to chariot people from the East, at least as a contributing factor. It seems similar to Urnfield Naue II and iron swordfighters, the introduction of chariots triggered a chain reaction which caused a migration period. Its very likely that Proto-Greeks were part of it, one way or another, and be it just by being pushed from a more steppe-like environment.

    These technological and military shifts were oftentimes big triggers and there are two dates connected to Central-Eastern Europe for the Greeks:
    - 1.600 BC (advanced Bronze technology and chariots, cavalry)
    - 1.200 BC (fully casted Naue II-type slashing swords, improved spearheads, mobile and close quarter infantry tactics, introduction of iron weapons and better cavalry, new religion and ethos derived from Urnfield culture)

    Its not by chance that both those shifts caused major migrations and both helped to bring and spread Greek speakers into what is now Greece.
    I'm just saying Mycenean Greeks would've definitely known about chariots since they're attested by at least 1700 BC in Anatolia. There were wide networks of communication and trade with the Eastern Mediterranean during the Middle Bronze Age so it's impossible they didn't know about them, if they didn't use it themselves. Anyway, I doubt chariot warfare would be a game changer in the Aegean given how rocky mainland Greek terrain is and the importance of maritime travel. Also, Proto-Greeks entering Greece in 1600 BC is too late IMO but we'll see.

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  18. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    I'm just saying Mycenean Greeks would've definitely known about chariots since they're attested by at least 1700 BC in Anatolia. There were wide networks of communication and trade with the Eastern Mediterranean during the Middle Bronze Age so it's impossible they didn't know about them, if they didn't use it themselves. Anyway, I doubt chariot warfare would be a game changer in the Aegean given how rocky mainland Greek terrain is and the importance of maritime travel. Also, Proto-Greeks entering Greece in 1600 BC is too late IMO but we'll see.
    Not exactly 1.600 BC, but probably a couple of generations before, in the 1.900-1.600 BC time window. Might be also different for different regions and I think that Mycenaean Greeks might be from chariot driving people coming in:
    Mycenaean Greece (or the Mycenaean civilization) was the last phase of the Bronze Age in Ancient Greece, spanning the period from approximately 1750 to 1050 BC
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece

    As for the chariot in Greek warfare, I don't think people used those only for prestige and the strong presence in arts and legends too make it likely to have been a real, practical instrument in early Greek warfare.

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