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Thread: How likely is it that Yamnaya wasn't IE-speaking, but rather something Caucasian?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The Yamnaya did raid and take (settle would be the wrong term in their case) various parts of Pannonia and Bulgaria, which are best suited for the more pastoralist groups within their range. However, what we see is that these were very pastoralist people, which did raid and dominate for a time, but later being incorporated or transitioned into a more settled way of life. They didn't found the cultures which seem to have spread, but rather, in combination with local Copper Age and Corded-related groups, formed new entities which spread. Therefore, there is no direct continuity from a Yamnaya group, to a culture clearly associated with any IE speaking people. They came, they were people apart, some lineages survived and played a role in fused people, but its not Yamnay -> culture X -> language Y.
    That's not there, imho.
    The cultures in which they still might have been dominant, or well-represented, didn't survive unaltered and unchanged into the historical period. Take for example the Mokrin samples: It was a complex mixture of elements, not just R-Z2103 and this specific group seems to have been, if not a dead end, at least not surviving as an unchanged entity. Too many pushes, migrations, mixtures etc. in between, to make it look like a good candidate for an attested IE language. And its pretty much the same for others.
    Like even if Greek got a lot from R-Z2103, probably, until we know when exactly it came down and who brought the Greek language, it might very well have been a group transformed by other elements, like Multi-Cordoned Ware. But at this point Greek and Armenian are among the hottest candidates for a Yamnaya derived language. But then again, it depends on the exact date of the Greek shift.
    If Proto-Greeks came with chariots in the MBA-LBA and being closer related to already Sintashta-related/-influenced groups, there goes the direct link.
    Thank you very much for your detailed response! Is it safe to say, then, that if someone has Steppe ancestry, that they got it from a Corded-Ware derived group instead of a Yamnaya-derived group?

    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    You shouldn't put too much emphasis on Y haplogroups. You can link Y haplogroups to migration but not usually to specific cultures.

    Yamnaya were mostly R1b Z2013, and at least I2 L699. Some Yamnaya settled in Balkans (Thrace, Bulgaria,...) and in Hungary.

    But their legacy is uncertain, and it is not sure at all that they left any existing language.

    In any case, it would seem strange to link them to non IE from the Caucasus.
    Aren't cultural migration often related to population migrations, though?

    And if the Yamnaya didn't bring R1b-Z2013 to the regions I mentioned before, namely Balkans, Anatolia and the Caucasus, then who could have?

  2. #12
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    R1b-Z2103-Y5587-Y5586 -> North Ossetia (Digor) -> Old Iranian language
    Last edited by Mis; 11-22-2021 at 03:16 PM.

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  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bovefex View Post
    Thank you very much for your detailed response! Is it safe to say, then, that if someone has Steppe ancestry, that they got it from a Corded-Ware derived group instead of a Yamnaya-derived group?
    I recently linked this video, which is highly important for that topic:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-millennium-BC

    As you can see, the borderlines between Yamnaya and Corded Ware were sometimes blurred. That's even more true in the Carpatho-Pannonian and Balkans. Obviously, if even, after all that turmoil and replacements, patrilineages of Yamnaya survived, surely their autosomal DNA survived, even if only on a fairly low level, too. Besides autosomally, Corded Ware, Cernavoda-Usatovo, Yamnaya - all descend from Sredny Stog-related groups, so being of a similar stock anyway.
    But just consider this: If in some cultures and regions in Pannonia Yamnaya mixed and Corded Ware mixed and Bell Beaker mixed groups fused multiple times, they all contributed, but its nearly impossible to disentagle it any longer.

    Obviously the vast majority of steppe ancestry is Corded Ware derived, but not all of it, especially in some places, usually those which have to this day a noticeable amount of R-Z2103 or had it up into more recent times.
    Last edited by Riverman; 11-22-2021 at 03:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mis View Post
    R1b-Z2103-Y5587-Y5585 -> North Ossetia (Digor) -> Old Iranian language
    What do you mean by Old Iranian? The clade is so far absent in both modern and ancient Indo-Iranians outside Ossetia (formed 4700 ybp according to Yfull) so it is doubtful it was associated with Proto-Iranics. Looks rather like a local North Caucasian/Steppe substrate lineage picked up either by Iron Age/LBA Iranics or much later in the historical/medieval period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    What do you mean by Old Iranian? The clade is so far absent in both modern and ancient Indo-Iranians outside Ossetia (formed 4700 ybp according to Yfull) so it is doubtful it was associated with Proto-Iranics. Looks rather like a local North Caucasian/Steppe substrate lineage picked up either by Iron Age/LBA Iranics or much later in the historical/medieval period.
    Its parallel branch, which is primarily present in Slavs, is interesting and makes it hard not to think of a Sarmatian connection. Still, it's doubtful that it or any other subclade of Z2103 was present amongst proto/early-Iranics and likely came in via assimilation of remnants of Catacomb/Poltavka or succeeding cultures around the LBA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Yamnaya language would share the same ancient Indo-European substratum as Tati, Talysh, Mazandarani and Gilaki languages sharing certain typological features with Southern Caucasian languages because they had the same Caspian genetic origin.
    Tati, Talysh,.... are Iranian languages, therefore from the Indo-Iranian branch of PIE and resulting from migration from Central Asia.

    No direct link with Yamnaya (obviously, since Indo-iranians came from CW), and Northern Iranians languages got influenced by non IE languages from Caucasus due to contact.

    There is no "Caspian genetic origin" in Yamnaya (whatever you mean by that, DNA or linguistic).
    Last edited by ffoucart; 11-22-2021 at 03:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    What do you mean by Old Iranian? The clade is so far absent in both modern and ancient Indo-Iranians outside Ossetia (formed 4700 ybp according to Yfull) so it is doubtful it was associated with Proto-Iranics. Looks rather like a local North Caucasian/Steppe substrate lineage picked up either by Iron Age/LBA Iranics or much later in the historical/medieval period.
    Could be similar to some E-V13 in the region spread by backflow on the steppe from Thraco-Cimmerian and Thraco-Scythian. Im any case many Caucasian subclades seem to be related to fairly recent founder effects, similar to what we see in Albanians.
    Such founder effects in clan groups can alter regional and ethnic frequencies quite rapidly.
    In couple of generations a former minority lineage can begin to dominate and replace older lineages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mis View Post
    R1b-Z2103-Y5587-Y5585 -> North Ossetia (Digor) -> Old Iranian language
    I always wondered if Pr3 Pokrovka (related to Grave number 97-R1b-CTS1450. Sarmatian/Alan.
    I15552 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis>R1b-Z2103 Z2110>Y5592>CTS1450. and about 1500+/- years after Sintashta culture)was a burial mound on top of a Sintashta warrior burial or responsible for destroying the heavily fortified warrior cultures found within Sintashta. Then I saw I7670 and I1020(probably kms 67+) so who knows.

    Anyway proto DOM2 horse people/warriors(Turganik clan) need PG2001 R1b-V1636(also from Danish Corded Ware -aka Single grave culture) to reconstruct their genetic ancestry- kurgans and red ochre DOM2 and

    PG2001.B0101.TF + B0201.TF (BZNK-113/4), kurgan 1, grave 37, was the Eneolithic
    founding grave in mound 1 was found in an oval pit, thickly packed in red ochre. The
    grave goods consisted of a long flint blade, a flint adze, a flint projectile head and
    another flint object. A radiocarbon doublet of charcoal and human bone revealed a
    strong reservoir-effect in the human bone date. Dating: human bone 4991-4834 calBCE
    (6012±28BP, MAMS-110564), charcoal 4336-4173 calBCE (5397±28BP, MAMS110563)
    • PG2002.A01
    Last edited by Silesian; 11-22-2021 at 03:30 PM.

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  15. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    I always wondered if Pr3 Pokrovka (related to Grave number 97-R1b-CTS1450. Sarmatian/Alan.
    I15552 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis>R1b-Z2103 Z2110>Y5592>CTS1450. and about 1500+/- years after Sintashta culture)was a burial mound on top of a Sintashta warrior burial or responsible for destroying the heavily fortified warrior cultures found within Sintashta. Then I saw I7670 and I1020(probably kms 67+) so who knows.

    Anyway proto DOM2 horse people/warriors(Turganik clan) need PG2001 R1b-V1636(also from Danish Corded Ware -aka Single grave culture) to reconstruct their genetic ancestry- kurgans and red ochre DOM2 and
    Sarmatians were Indo-Iranians and likely direct descendants of Sintashta or at least of some very closely related nearby culture so what makes you think Sarmatian R1b "destroyed" Sintashta R1a, which anyways existed long before Sarmatians or Scythians? It is very clear that Iron Age Iranics were dominated by R1a-Z93 just like Sintashta or Srubnaya before even if R1b-Z2103 played among them a bigger role than in Sintashta or Abashevo.

    It is true that the initial "Steppe/Horse Warrior" cultural package was picked up by CWC R1a-Z93 from R1b-Z2103 of the Ponto-Caspian Steppe but with the arrival of Z93 in the region, we see almost a full Y-DNA change and only outliners carried R1b-Z2103 it in the Middle/Late Bronze Age, so there was despite the initial technological disadvantage massive replacement in the region.

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    Yamnaya known branches were R1b Z2103 also found in Iran in Tepe Hasanlu and often present in Northern Middle East (Iran, Kurds), Transcaucasian (Armenian) and Anatolian Indo-European populations with the J founders. Only BMAC had the original Indo-European components in Central Asia before the steppe/CHG-Iranian movements from the North with other different local Indo-Europeanized lineages, then the Mongol and Turkic movements also changed dispositions in Central Asia.

    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Tati, Talysh,.... are Iranian languages, therefore from the Indo-Iranian branch of PIE and resulting from migration from Central Asia.

    No direct link with Yamnaya (obviously, since Indo-iranians came from CW), and Northern Iranians languages got influenced by non IE languages from Caucasus due to contact.

    There is no "Caspian genetic origin" in Yamnaya (whatever you mean by that, DNA or linguistic).
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