Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 57

Thread: How likely is it that Yamnaya wasn't IE-speaking, but rather something Caucasian?

  1. #21
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,451
    Sex
    Location
    Canada's Wonderland
    Ethnicity
    Space the final frontier.
    Nationality
    Worldwide
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2110>BY593+
    mtDNA (M)
    U5B2A2
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U106

    I0246 clusters with I7670 and I1020(Turganik Dom2 early horse clans) & modern day Ossetians aka Alans--belong to branch Z2109-Z2110>5586 /5587
    https://imgur.com/a/oUeeaLF

    Last edited by Silesian; 11-22-2021 at 05:26 PM.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Silesian For This Useful Post:

     JoeyP37 (11-23-2021),  Mis (11-22-2021),  Riverman (11-22-2021)

  3. #22
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,567
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a29a

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Yamnaya known branches were R1b Z2103 also found in Iran in Tepe Hasanlu and often present in Northern Middle East (Iran, Kurds), Transcaucasian (Armenian) and Anatolian Indo-European populations with the J founders. Only BMAC had the original Indo-European components in Central Asia before the steppe/CHG-Iranian movements from the North with other different local Indo-Europeanized lineages, then the Mongol and Turkic movements also changed dispositions in Central Asia.
    You seem very confused.

    In any case, a single haplogroup, especially from modern distribution, is not equivalent to a specific culture. Especially when multiple migrations events are involved.

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     Michał (11-22-2021),  Ruderico (11-22-2021)

  5. #23
    Registered Users
    Posts
    8,202
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Yamnaya was a significant ancestral component in a lot of successor cultures in post-Yamnaya era in the Danube and Balkans in the 2nd half of the 3rd millennium BC. Z2103 is still surely the biggest steppe derived non-Slavic yDNA in the lower Danube, the Balkansand Anatolia. It was surely the biggest cheese in terms of actually moving IE as a language west of the Black Sea. If they didn’t bring the steppe language then I don’t see who did? They have got to have had a role in the palaeo balkans branch entering that zone even if in some cases other lineages became a big deal later. I assume they had a role somewhere in the genesis of Armenian, Greek, Phrygian, Dacian, Albanian etc . I still suspect in Anatolian too. But it is also true that tie ancient DNa sampling is not yet sufficient to prove or disprove. But personally if you exclude or downplay Z2103 I don’t think it leaves enough other yDNA types that could have literally brought IE from the steppes. What happened 2500-2000BC in SE ‘old europe’ is a different matter and likely v complex.

  6. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     Alain (11-22-2021),  bovefex (11-22-2021),  JoeyP37 (11-23-2021),  Michał (11-22-2021),  Mis (11-23-2021),  Pylsteen (11-23-2021),  VladimirTaraskin (11-23-2021)

  7. #24
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,481
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Yamnaya was a significant ancestral component in a lot of successor cultures in post-Yamnaya era in the Danube and Balkans in the 2nd half of the 3rd millennium BC. Z2103 is still surely the biggest steppe derived non-Slavic yDNA in the lower Danube, the Balkansand Anatolia. It was surely the biggest cheese in terms of actually moving IE as a language west of the Black Sea. If they didn’t bring the steppe language then I don’t see who did? They have got to have had a role in the palaeo balkans branch entering that zone even if in some cases other lineages became a big deal later. I assume they had a role somewhere in the genesis of Armenian, Greek, Phrygian, Dacian, Albanian etc . I still suspect in Anatolian too. But it is also true that tie ancient DNa sampling is not yet sufficient to prove or disprove. But personally if you exclude or downplay Z2103 I don’t think it leaves enough other yDNA types that could have literally brought IE from the steppes. What happened 2500-2000BC in SE ‘old europe’ is a different matter and likely v complex.
    You mention 5 languages, but I would associate them with only 2-3 major groupings. One is Daco-Thracian and Phrygian.
    A lot will depend for this group on whether or not the pre-Channelled Ware E-V13 in the MBA will be found in an Epi-Corded or Yamnaya related context.
    For Greeks and Armenians it depends on whether or not they came in the MBA-LBA with chariot people or not.
    For Illyrians and Albanians it depends how close they connect to Cetina and Bell Beakers, the Middle Danubian Tumulus culture.
    And that's it, that are all the better, yet completely uncertain candidates for Yamnaya influence.
    Also, no and no. The main movements of early steppe people into the Balkans had little to nothing to do with Yamnaya.
    The Corded decorated horizon and groups like Cernavoda, Cotofeni and Usatovo were not Yamnaya, but Western steppe groups which had a bigger influence on the region than Yamnaya.
    The Yamnaya proper appear in this region as half-nomadic pastoralists, raiding here, grazing there, at some point fusing with the locals if surviving at all.
    In this respect they might be similar to the Noua group from the steppe or much later the Avars.
    Very big first impact which destroys some people, but when the dust settled down they suddenly being much smaller than at first sight and can't control the macro-region, being even compromised at the regional level.
    Its not by chance that we have from the MBA groups which are almost fully Bell Beaker, E-V13, J-L283, etc in the region, but its unlikely to find the same for R-Z2103. But even if, it will be a later founder effect in a post-Yamnaya framework!
    The Yamnaya groups in the narrower sense didn't even survive the EBA.

  8. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     etrusco (11-22-2021),  ffoucart (11-23-2021),  Psynome (11-24-2021)

  9. #25
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,451
    Sex
    Location
    Canada's Wonderland
    Ethnicity
    Space the final frontier.
    Nationality
    Worldwide
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2110>BY593+
    mtDNA (M)
    U5B2A2
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U106

    KMS-75 - Bashkir related to -replacement of Sintashta-Arkaim I7670 I1020 clans?
    I0231-KMS 75 age?
    https://amtdb.org/sample/I0231

    Genetic studies about Y-DNA haplogroups have revealed that the dominant frequency for Bashkir males is the haplogroup R1b (R-M269 and R-M73) which is, on average, 47.6%. The second most dominant haplogroup is the haplogroup R1a at an average frequency of 26,5%, and third the haplogroup N1c at 17%


    Last edited by Silesian; 11-22-2021 at 11:09 PM.

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Silesian For This Useful Post:

     JoeyP37 (11-23-2021),  Mis (11-23-2021)

  11. #26
    Registered Users
    Posts
    8,202
    Sex
    Omitted
    Y-DNA (P)
    L21
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    You mention 5 languages, but I would associate them with only 2-3 major groupings. One is Daco-Thracian and Phrygian.
    A lot will depend for this group on whether or not the pre-Channelled Ware E-V13 in the MBA will be found in an Epi-Corded or Yamnaya related context.
    For Greeks and Armenians it depends on whether or not they came in the MBA-LBA with chariot people or not.
    For Illyrians and Albanians it depends how close they connect to Cetina and Bell Beakers, the Middle Danubian Tumulus culture.
    And that's it, that are all the better, yet completely uncertain candidates for Yamnaya influence.
    Also, no and no. The main movements of early steppe people into the Balkans had little to nothing to do with Yamnaya.
    The Corded decorated horizon and groups like Cernavoda, Cotofeni and Usatovo were not Yamnaya, but Western steppe groups which had a bigger influence on the region than Yamnaya.
    The Yamnaya proper appear in this region as half-nomadic pastoralists, raiding here, grazing there, at some point fusing with the locals if surviving at all.
    In this respect they might be similar to the Noua group from the steppe or much later the Avars.
    Very big first impact which destroys some people, but when the dust settled down they suddenly being much smaller than at first sight and can't control the macro-region, being even compromised at the regional level.
    Its not by chance that we have from the MBA groups which are almost fully Bell Beaker, E-V13, J-L283, etc in the region, but its unlikely to find the same for R-Z2103. But even if, it will be a later founder effect in a post-Yamnaya framework!
    The Yamnaya groups in the narrower sense didn't even survive the EBA.
    Though when you subtract the likely slavic element there is a considerable % of Z2103 in SE Europe which rises highest in the non Slavic speakers. There was clearly a significant % of it in pre Slavic times. It had to have arrived before Z2103 dominance ended on the western steppes itself. It’s weird though. The archaeology shows almost spatial perfect segregation between yamnaya and other cultures but despite that Z2103 did penetrate non yamnaya cultures too. And of course the genetics shows Yamnaya was far from a pure steppe Z2103 culture in SE Europe. I just think we don’t have enough samples tested to understand it all as yet. That period after 2500BC when yamnaya as a culture disappears is crucial and the 4.2 kiki year event probably had a role in subsequent development too

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to alan For This Useful Post:

     bovefex (11-23-2021),  JoeyP37 (11-23-2021),  Michał (11-23-2021)

  13. #27
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,567
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a29a

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Though when you subtract the likely slavic element there is a considerable % of Z2103 in SE Europe which rises highest in the non Slavic speakers. There was clearly a significant % of it in pre Slavic times. It had to have arrived before Z2103 dominance ended on the western steppes itself. It’s weird though. The archaeology shows almost spatial perfect segregation between yamnaya and other cultures but despite that Z2103 did penetrate non yamnaya cultures too. And of course the genetics shows Yamnaya was far from a pure steppe Z2103 culture in SE Europe. I just think we don’t have enough samples tested to understand it all as yet. That period after 2500BC when yamnaya as a culture disappears is crucial and the 4.2 kiki year event probably had a role in subsequent development too
    Agreed.

    I can't rule out that Anatolian could have been Yamnaya from Bulgaria/Thrace.

    But I think that other IE languages, still existing, in the Balkans or nearby (Armenian...) are not related to Yamnaya language, but are the results of later IE expansions (but could be wrong, more samples are needed to explain exactly what happened in the Balkans).
    Last edited by ffoucart; 11-23-2021 at 09:21 AM.

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     bovefex (11-23-2021),  JoeyP37 (11-23-2021)

  15. #28
    Registered Users
    Posts
    173
    Sex
    Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    Agreed.

    I can't rule out that Anatolian could have been Yamnaya from Bulgaria/Thrace.

    But I think that other IE languages, still existing, in the Balkans or nearby (Armenian...) are not related to Yamnaya language, but are the results of later IE expansions.
    It is often mentioned that Anatolia was possibly a sister branch to PIE, right? If we assume that Yamnaya indeed didn’t speak PIE but a very similar dialect, wouldn’t it make a lot of sense for Z2013, which is a sister branch to L51, to be related to proto-Anatolian speakers?

    Though if I remember correctly, Yamnaya existed too late for thus to be possible, but I found it interesting as a shower thought.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to bovefex For This Useful Post:

     JoeyP37 (11-23-2021)

  17. #29
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,567
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a29a

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by bovefex View Post
    It is often mentioned that Anatolia was possibly a sister branch to PIE, right? If we assume that Yamnaya indeed didn’t speak PIE but a very similar dialect, wouldn’t it make a lot of sense for Z2013, which is a sister branch to L51, to be related to proto-Anatolian speakers?

    Though if I remember correctly, Yamnaya existed too late for thus to be possible, but I found it interesting as a shower thought.
    There are different theories about Proto-Anatolian, but my understanding is that it is an early branch of PIE, not a sister branch (at least, this the consensus, even if some are not agree with). We have attested Anatolian languages firstly during the Colonies period in Anatolia, with at least several centuries of separation from the Core PIE (LPIE).

    If CW was correlated to LPIE expansion, and given that CW was a sister (or a cousine) population of Yamnaya, it does mean that Yamnaya language separated itself from PIE something like 3500/3200BC, which is perfectly consistant with datation of the split of Proto-Anatolian.

    The split of Proto-Anatolian is consensually dated to something like the IVth millenium.

    So, Yamnaya could very well be the source for proto-Anatolian. Especially given that Yamnaya were present in Thrace/Bulgaria already around 2900 BC. So, at the door to Anatolia (and we still don't have much information about the Silivri Kurgan).

    The classical theory about Anatolians, is that they migrated during the IIId millenium in Anatolia in small bands. Probably from the Balkans. Or at least in Central Anatolia (NW Anatolia could have been IE since the late IVth millenium).

    So, since Yamnaya Bulgaria existed between 3000 to 2500, it does fit the conditions.

    Problem is: how explain Greek, Armenian ...
    Last edited by ffoucart; 11-23-2021 at 11:35 AM.

  18. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     Alain (11-23-2021),  bovefex (11-23-2021),  JoeyP37 (11-23-2021)

  19. #30
    Registered Users
    Posts
    173
    Sex
    Omitted

    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    There are different theories about Proto-Anatolian, but my understanding is that it is an early branch of PIE, not a sister branch (at least, this the consensus, even if some are not agree with). We have attested Anatolian languages firstly during the Colonies period in Anatolia, with at least several centuries of separation from the Core PIE (LPIE).

    If CW was correlated to LPIE expansion, and given that CW was a sister (or a cousine) population of Yamnaya, it does mean that Yamnaya language separated itself from PIE something like 3500/3200BC, which is perfectly consistant with datation of the split of Proto-Anatolian.

    The split of Proto-Anatolian is consensually dated to something like the IVth millenium.

    So, Yamnaya could very well be the source for proto-Anatolian. Especially given that Yamnaya were present in Thrace/Bulgaria already around 2900 BC. So, at the door to Anatolia (and we still don't have much information about the Silivri Kurgan).

    The classical theory about Anatolians, is that they migrated during the IIId millenium in Anatolia in small bands. Probably from the Balkans. Or at least in Central Anatolia (NE Anatolia could have been IE since the late IVth millenium).

    So, since Yamnaya Bulgaria existed between 3000 to 2500, it does fit the conditions.

    Problem is: how explain Greek, Armenian ...
    With NE Anatolia, do you mean the Eastern Black Sea region? If so, which language could they have even spoken?

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Genetically speaking who are the Alawites?
    By Artorias21956 in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-18-2021, 08:37 PM
  2. Just got told I was IP banned, and then wasn't?
    By Censored in forum Forum Support
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-22-2020, 04:32 AM
  3. Replies: 24
    Last Post: 04-19-2018, 10:52 AM
  4. Genetically Speaking, You’re More Like Your Dad (?)
    By Tomenable in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-28-2016, 06:48 PM
  5. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10-12-2015, 12:59 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •