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Thread: Is Indo-European originally an Eastern Eurasian language family?

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    Is Indo-European originally an Eastern Eurasian language family?

    Hints for Eastern Eurasian ancestry:

    -> Paternal haplogroup R deriving from Eastern Eurasia (South East Asia)
    -> Current Ancient North Eurasian samples have significant East Eurasian ancestry
    -> ANE contributed largely to the East European Hunter Gatherers

    Big question would be whether Tarim mummies were Indo-Europeans and could they have spoken Tocharian related languages? Could Tocharian be one of the earliest IE languages?

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    R is not southeast Asian but almost certainly originated in proto-ANE in north Eurasia well in the paleolithic together with its sister lineage Q. You have to maybe go back to early P1 to maybe find a link to southeast Asia, which is hardly confirmed.
    East Eurasian-like ancestry in proto-ANE is extremely old, pre LGM, Yana-river people 30000 years ago had it already and from what I've seen, when enough east eurasian samples are considered in a qpGraph topology, it's very basal, hence any precise link to a linguistic family that is only few thousands years old like IE is essentially meaningless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mauors View Post
    R is not southeast Asian but almost certainly originated in proto-ANE in north Eurasia well in the paleolithic together with its sister lineage Q. You have to maybe go back to early P1 to maybe find a link to southeast Asia, which is hardly confirmed.
    East Eurasian-like ancestry in proto-ANE is extremely old, pre LGM, Yana-river people 30000 years ago had it already and from what I've seen, when enough east eurasian samples are considered in a qpGraph topology, it's very basal, hence any precise link to a linguistic family that is only few thousands years old like IE is essentially meaningless.
    to add one could point to the low level of east eurasian ancestry in proto ANE/ANS. It is only 20% IIRC. And yet we still do not know where P came from. It is still open the possibilty that it arrived in Siberia with the aurignacian/like dna that forms 80% of proto ANE. IIRC Afontova Gora, which is the cluster that along with WHG forms the EHG was even more west eurasian shifted -
    Given the fact that PIE were uniformely WHG/EHG that points to PIE being full fledged west eurasian

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    Haplogroup P according to the raw data was found in Bacho Kiro Bulgaria more than 30kya ago so it is unlikely P oringined in SE Asia. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-cave-bulgaria
    Maternal Uncle y-line= F0R1b1-L21

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    Quote Originally Posted by venustas View Post
    Haplogroup P according to the raw data was found in Bacho Kiro Bulgaria more than 30kya ago so it is unlikely P oringined in SE Asia. https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-cave-bulgaria
    yes that what I was thinking of. R1b/R1a could likely having been born west of the urals during gravettian.

    BK1653 is fully aurignacian dna.

    bk1653.jpeg
    Last edited by etrusco; 11-22-2021 at 04:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    to add one could point to the low level of east eurasian ancestry in proto ANE/ANS. It is only 20% IIRC. And yet we still do not know where P came from. It is still open the possibilty that it arrived in Siberia with the aurignacian/like dna that forms 80% of proto ANE. IIRC Afontova Gora, which is the cluster that along with WHG forms the EHG was even more west eurasian shifted -
    Given the fact that PIE were uniformely WHG/EHG that points to PIE being full fledged west eurasian
    That East Eurasian is the junior component with 20% doesn't mean that they couldn't have spoken IE. Modern Indo-Aryans do have only 20% steppe ancestry, but they all speak those languages from the steppes today. I think current state of consensus is P derived from a South East Asian source although long ago admittedly. Fact remains, that ANE could have mediated IE to Western Eurasia through P derived R from East Eurasia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    yes that what I was thinking of. R1b/R1a could likely having been born west of the urals during gravettian.

    BK1653 is fully aurignacian dna.

    bk1653.jpeg
    everything would be like this if BK1653 wasn't a woman

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    everything would be like this if BK1653 wasn't a woman
    I know there was a debate on that sample but still, with 80% contribution from aurignacian ( deep west eurasian) it is pretty much unwise to rule out a west eurasian origin for K2b/P/Q/R.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I know there was a debate on that sample but still, with 80% contribution from aurignacian ( deep west eurasian) it is pretty much unwise to rule out a west eurasian origin for K2b/P/Q/R.

    Unlikely. There are no prerequisites for this. But what is really interesting is the Ural Mountains. Now archaeologists have finally conducted radiocarbon dating of the sites in the caves and interesting information has emerged. There is a layer of sites of the period 28000-23000 years BC and in all these sites there is definitely an eastern gravette, similar to the late Kostenki and Sungir. Then there is the LGM period from 23,000 to 18,000 BC in which there is not a single parking lot in the Urals. Then, from 17,000 years ago to 13,000 years BC, a huge number of sites are again found in the Ural caves, but with a Siberian culture similar to the Malta culture, where R * was discovered. The hypothesis is quite reasonable that in the period of 28000-23000 populations similar to Kostenki and Sungir went through the Urals to Siberia, and in the period of 17000-13000 years populations similar to Malta went back from Siberia to Europe. I would work very closely with the Ural caves.


    And what happened in Siberia happened much later in Western Europe, especially in the south of Western Europe, when steppe Y-DNA has an autosomal EEF profile. Apparently the same thing happened in Siberia, where Siberian Y-DNA, for example P, received an autosomal Gravett profile.
    Last edited by VladimirTaraskin; 11-22-2021 at 06:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    Unlikely. There are no prerequisites for this. But what is really interesting is the Ural Mountains. Now archaeologists have finally conducted radiocarbon dating of the sites in the caves and interesting information has emerged. There is a layer of sites of the period 28000-23000 years BC and in all these sites there is definitely an eastern gravette, similar to the late Kostenki and Sungir. Then there is the LGM period from 23,000 to 18,000 BC in which there is not a single parking lot in the Urals. Then, from 17,000 years ago to 13,000 years BC, a huge number of sites are again found in the Ural caves, but with a Siberian culture similar to the Malta culture, where R * was discovered. The hypothesis is quite reasonable that in the period of 28000-23000 populations similar to Kostenki and Sungir went through the Urals to Siberia, and in the period of 17000-13000 years populations similar to Malta went back from Siberia to Europe. I would work very closely with the Ural caves.


    And what happened in Siberia happened much later in Western Europe, especially in the south of Western Europe, when steppe Y-DNA has an autosomal EEF profile. Apparently the same thing happened in Siberia, where Siberian Y-DNA, for example P, received an autosomal Gravett profile.
    yu are missing the point P and later on expecially its offsprings R1a and R1b are west eurasian genetc markers, no matter in what geographical region they are born. The main point is where its genetic cluster originated and in this respect ancient dna already rechead a sentence: west eurasian dna originated not in siberia and the urals but further to the west . Even some east eurasian dna was likely present even before in europe than in asia just think of the Bacho Kiro sample who is more similar to east eurasian than west eurasian. P was found in a population that was mostly west eurasian.
    The old idea that european dna comes from Siberia has been totally debunked. That is one of the big deal of 2021

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