Tai-Kradai vocabulary (with a focus on Zhuang/Cuengh)

[MNOPSC1b]

Tai-Kradai is one of the world's major language families and it's spoken across Southern China and mainland SE Asia. In this thread I'll gather some native vocabulary from the Zhuang/Cuengh language spoken in Southern China which belongs to the Northern Tai branch of this family (since that's the language that I'm most familiar with and have the most information about). And the few Sinitic posters who claim that Tai-Kradai is related to Sinitic or even Japonic, please check how much native Zhuang vocabulary you could understand if you were to rely only on clues from Mandarin or Japanese. I'll put the corresponding words in Mandarin and Japanese for comparison. Without further ado, let's begin.

Body Parts

Zhuang - English - Mandarin - Japanese

Nang - Body - Shenti - Karada

Gaeuj - Head - Tou - Atama

Naj - Face - Lian - Kao

Bun - Hair - Toufa - Kami

Lawz - Ear - Er - Mimi

Da - Eye - Yan/Mu - Me

Naeng - Nose - Bi - Hana

Bak - Mouth - Zui/Kou - Kuchi

Hoz - Neck - Bozi/Jing - Kubi

Loengx Maq - Shoulder - Jian - Kata

Laeng - Back - Bei - Senaka

Aek - Chest - Xiong - Mune

Gen - Arm - Gebo/Bi - Ude

Sok - Elbow - Zhou - Hiji

Fungz - Hand - Shou - Te

Hwet - Waist - Yao - Koshi

Dungx - Belly - Duzi/Fu - Hara

Ha/Ga - Thigh - Datui - Futomomo

Gaeuj Hoq - Knee - Xigai/Xi - Hiza

Hengh - Leg - Tui - Ashi

Baj Hengh - Foot - Jiao/Zu - Ashi

Faenz - Tooth - Ya/Chi - Ha

Linx - Tongue - She - Shita

Congh Hoz - Throat - Sangzi/Hou - Nodo

Bwt - Lung - Fei - Hai (Sinitic loanword)

Daep - Liver - Gan - Kanzo (Sinitic loanword)


As you can see, the three Asian languages have very little in common.

[Max_H]

I know of the theory that Kra-Dai languages are related to Sinitic by some Chinese linguists and I am skeptical, perhaps some superficial commonalities are due to the Austroasiatic substrates in Chinese likely also existing in some Kra-Dai languages (such as the Zhuang-Dong group) but a more interesting theory to explore is to what extent Kra-Dai are related to Austronesian since I think there is some evidence for it, perhaps more related to Austronesian than Austroasiatic.

Some have even argued of Kra-Dai influences in Vietnamese, perhaps shared Austonesian influence? I don't know much about linguistics beyond some basics about Sinitic and Japonic so dont have an opinion either or

[MNOPSC1b]

Now let's compare the colors in these 3 languages

Note that Zhuang does have borrowed Sinitic vocabulary for colors, however here I'll only show their native vocabulary. Note also that "Se" means color in Mandarin, it can be added after each color to emphasize the color but it's not compulsory, that's why I put it in brackets.

Zhuang - English - Mandarin - Japanese

Henj - Yellow - Huang (Se) - Kiiro

Ning - Red - Hong (Se) - Aka

Heu - Green - Lü (Se) - Midori

Ceb - Blue - Lan (Se) - Ao

Aeuj - Purple - Zi (Se) - Murasaki

Mong - Grey - Hui (Se) - Haiiro ("Hai" is likely borrowed from Sinitic "Hui")

Hau - White - Bai (Se) - Shiro

Naem - Black - Hei (Se) - Kuro

Again, other than Mandarin "Hui" and Japanese "Haiiro", there's no similarity among the three.

[Ebizur]

Now let's compare the colors in these 3 languages

Zhuang - English - Mandarin - Japanese

Henj - Yellow - Huang (Se) - Kiiro
...

Mong - Grey - Hui (Se) - Haiiro ("Hai" is likely borrowed from Sinitic "Hui")

...

Again, other than Mandarin "Hui" and Japanese "Haiiro", there's no similarity among the three.

Japanese iro means "color; complexion; (superficial) appearance; sex(ual attractiveness)," just like Mandarin 色 se.

The Japanese etymon for "yellow" is really just ki, with combining form ko- 〜 ku-. It might in fact be the same root as Japanese ki 〜 ko- 〜 ku- "tree; wood."

The Japanese etymon for "ash; gray" is *papi > hai. It is unrelated to Chinese 灰 hui, the latter of which is pronounced as kai in Japanese.

[MNOPSC1b]

Japanese iro means "color; complexion; (superficial) appearance; sex(ual attractiveness)," just like Mandarin 色 se.

The Japanese etymon for "yellow" is really just ki, with combining form ko- 〜 ku-. It might in fact be the same root as Japanese ki 〜 ko- 〜 ku- "tree; wood."

The Japanese etymon for "ash; gray" is *papi > hai. It is unrelated to Chinese 灰 hui, the latter of which is pronounced as kai in Japanese.

Thanks for the info. I actually know that "iro" means color just like "se" in Mandarin, but I don't know that "hai" is a native Japanese word, I've always thought it was borrowed from Sinitic.

However, that doesn't change the fact that these three languages have very little similarity, and any similarity among them is likely due to borrowing, areal diffusion, or chance correspondence.

[Ebizur]

Thanks for the info. I actually know that "iro" means color just like "se" in Mandarin, but I don't know that "hai" is a native Japanese word, I've always thought it was borrowed from Sinitic.

However, that doesn't change the fact that these three languages have very little similarity, and any similarity among them is likely due to borrowing, areal diffusion, or chance correspondence.

Japanese はひ *papi > はい hai "ash; gray" is a Japonic word with regular reflexes in the most divergent dialects/languages, such as those of Okinawa (ɸeː ~ heː) and the Yaeyama Islands (pʲeː).

In normal (mostly scientific) Sinitic borrowings or coinages, 灰 is read as *kwai > kai: e.g. 石灰 sekkai "(slaked/quick) lime, calcium (compounds)," 泥灰土 deikaido "marl." This *kwai > kai reading of the character 灰 is known in Japanese lexicography as the 漢音 Kan-on "Han (Dynasty) pronunciation."

In several ancient Buddhist terms of art, the character 灰 may be read as *kwe > ke: e.g. 灰身滅智 keshinmetchi "to turn one's body to ashes and extinguish one's intellect" (also abbreviated as 灰滅 kemetsu), (無余)灰断 (muyo) kedan "to turn to ash and sever (karmic bonds without anything remaining)" (fully Sinitic version of 無余涅槃 "absolute nirvāṇa, nirvāṇa without anything being left"). This *kwe > ke reading of the character 灰 is known in Japanese lexicography as the 呉音 Go-on "Wu (Kingdom) pronunciation."

A more recent and idiosyncratic borrowing of the Chinese word 灰 appears as the second syllable in Japanese shikkui "mortar, plaster, stucco," which is usually written with ateji as 漆喰, but which is actually a doublet of 石灰 sekkai "(slaked/quick) lime, calcium (compound)."

Any perceived resemblance between Japanese hai < *papi "ash; gray" and Chinese 灰 huī "ash; lime; dust; gray; to lose (spirit) > to be discouraged, to be dispirited, to be dejected" is almost certainly coincidental.

[MNOPSC1b]

Japanese はひ *papi > はい hai "ash; gray" is a Japonic word with regular reflexes in the most divergent dialects/languages, such as those of Okinawa (ɸeː ~ heː) and the Yaeyama Islands (pʲeː).

In normal (mostly scientific) Sinitic borrowings or coinages, 灰 is read as *kwai > kai: e.g. 石灰 sekkai "(slaked/quick) lime, calcium (compounds)," 泥灰土 deikaido "marl." This *kwai > kai reading of the character 灰 is known in Japanese lexicography as the 漢音 Kan-on "Han (Dynasty) pronunciation."

In several ancient Buddhist terms of art, the character 灰 may be read as *kwe > ke: e.g. 灰身滅智 keshinmetchi "to turn one's body to ashes and extinguish one's intellect" (also abbreviated as 灰滅 kemetsu), (無余)灰断 (muyo) kedan "to turn to ash and sever (karmic bonds without anything remaining)" (fully Sinitic version of 無余涅槃 "absolute nirvāṇa, nirvāṇa without anything being left"). This *kwe > ke reading of the character 灰 is known in Japanese lexicography as the 呉音 Go-on "Wu (Kingdom) pronunciation."

A more recent and idiosyncratic borrowing of the Chinese word 灰 appears as the second syllable in Japanese shikkui "mortar, plaster, stucco," which is usually written with ateji as 漆喰, but which is actually a doublet of 石灰 sekkai "(slaked/quick) lime, calcium (compound)."

Any perceived resemblance between Japanese hai < *papi "ash; gray" and Chinese 灰 huī "ash; lime; dust; gray; to lose (spirit) > to be discouraged, to be dispirited, to be dejected" is almost certainly coincidental.

Thanks for the excellent info and thanks for pointing out the chance correspondence. I've learned a lot.

But unfortunately back on Chinese discussion boards a lot of people take these chance correspondences between Sinitic and other Asian languages quite seriously, and when I argued against them I got myself banned.

[MNOPSC1b]

Now that we've learned some colors in each of the three languages, we can make some short phrases.

For instance, to say "blue sky":

in Mandarin it's "Lan Tian", where "Lan" means blue, and "Tian" means sky.

in Japanese it's "Ao Sora", where "Ao" means blue, and "Sora" means sky. (Not to be confused with "Aoi Sora", that's the name of a former Japanese porn actress)

in Zhuang it's "Mun Ceb". This one is different from the other two, cause Zhuang (and other SE Asian languages) puts the adjective/modifier after the noun and not before it. So in this case "Mun" means sky, and "Ceb" means blue.

[Ebizur]

Now that we've learned some colors in each of the three languages, we can make some short phrases.

For instance, to say "blue sky":

in Mandarin it's "Lan Tian", where "Lan" means blue, and "Tian" means sky.

in Japanese it's "Ao Sora", where "Ao" means blue, and "Sora" means sky. (Not to be confused with "Aoi Sora", that's the name of a former Japanese porn actress)

in Zhuang it's "Mun Ceb". This one is different from the other two, cause Zhuang (and other SE Asian languages) puts the adjective/modifier after the noun and not before it. So in this case "Mun" means sky, and "Ceb" means blue.

Strictly speaking, "blue sky" as a noun phrase consisting of an adjective meaning "blue" modifying a noun meaning "sky" would be aoi sora (< awoki sora) in Japanese. However, a compound noun aozora that means "blue sky" also exists and is frequently used in present-day Japanese. The initial /s/ of sora "sky; feigned, pretended, false; unreal, imaginary, illusory, hallucinated; top (of a tree, etc.), above, over" is changed to /z/; this voicing of the initial consonant of the second morpheme in a compound is known as 連濁 rendaku.

As you have mentioned, Southeast Asian languages, like Romance languages in Europe, prefer noun-adjective word order. The Vietnamese have been so thorough about this that they have even transposed the order of the constituent morphemes of various Sinitic compounds.

[MNOPSC1b]

Strictly speaking, "blue sky" as a noun phrase consisting of an adjective meaning "blue" modifying a noun meaning "sky" would be aoi sora (< awoki sora) in Japanese. However, a compound noun aozora that means "blue sky" also exists and is frequently used in present-day Japanese. The initial /s/ of sora "sky; feigned, pretended, false; unreal, imaginary, illusory, hallucinated; top (of a tree, etc.), above, over" is changed to /z/; this voicing of the initial consonant of the second morpheme in a compound is known as 連濁 rendaku.

As you have mentioned, Southeast Asian languages, like Romance languages in Europe, prefer noun-adjective word order. The Vietnamese have been so thorough about this that they have even transposed the order of the constituent morphemes of various Sinitic compounds.

Thank you for pointing that out, I didn't know about the phenomenon of Rendaku in Japanese, very interesting.

The noun-adjective word order isn't just found in Vietnamese, Zhuang, and other SE Asian languages, it's also found in some southern Sinitic languages like Cantonese and Hokkien, who are believed to have had extensive contacts with Kradai and Hmong-Mien. For instance in Cantonese, instead of saying 公鸡 (rooster, where 公 means male and 鸡 means chicken) like in Mandarin, Cantonese people would say 鸡公. And in Minnan Hokkien language, instead of saying 客人 (guest, where 客 is used as an adjective/modifier and describes the state of being a guest, and 人 is man or human) like in Mandarin, they would say 人客.