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Thread: The Seima-Turbino Phenomenon

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    I moved your message from another topic. And as far as it is generally correct now, all subclades N combine into one group? It is now quite clear that the subclades Z1934, CTS9976 and Z4908 are different groups and, obviously, different archaeological cultures. Even now, let's say in Lithuania, group N is almost 100% - Z4908, and, for example, in Finland about 75% of group N is Z1934, another 20% is CTS9976 and only about 5% is Z4908. I have no data for Latvia and Estonia, but it is obvious that there are more Z4908 in Latvia and practically no Z1934, while in Estonia there are Z1936 and most CTS9976 and, apparently, very few Z4908.
    Yes, that is correct. So, given its date and location it is quite likely that North Lithuanian N 300 AD was under Z4908.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Yes, that is correct. So, given its date and location it is quite likely that North Lithuanian N 300 AD was under Z4908.
    Yes, the Z4908 apparently passed through Estonia to Scandinavia, where the founder effect occurred. Perhaps L1025 came from there, or L1025 stayed on the coast, perhaps in the area of modern Russian Kaliningrad. Perhaps they spread with burials in the form of long mounds under the pressure of the Goths. It's hard to say about CTS9976 yet. Perhaps this group somehow gained a foothold in the Baltic States after the burials in Taranda. This is the only group that remained from the textile ceramics culture and which was eventually absorbed by the Baltic cultures that came from the Dnieper. And Z1925 - approached the Baltic from the Gulf of Finland, this is the population of the Ananyino culture.
    https://www.evrazstep.ru/index.php/a...e/view/177/209

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  5. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    Code:
    p	Russia_Krasnoyarsk_BA	Russia_MLBA_Sintashta	WSHG	feasible	target
    
    0.41775784184003667	0.33530957724316923	0.5184563064941542	0.14623411626267654	TRUE	RISE493
    https://pastebin.com/SrmcN47k

    Code:
    left pops:
    RISE493
    Russia_MLBA_Sintashta
    WSHG
    Russia_Krasnoyarsk_BA
    
    best coefficients:     0.455     0.203     0.342 
    totmean:      0.455     0.203     0.342 
    boot mean:     0.455     0.203     0.342 
          std. errors:     0.027     0.031     0.016
    It is really similar to I6717, only with small differences in terms of WSHG/KRA001. Thus by ~1500 BC you probably had a population which formed on the basis of Kra001 related migrations mixed with WSHG related people, but from ones further to the west than the Altai. And then they were back into the Krasnoyarsk region.

    Now the interesting thing is that both turned up half steppe_mlba rather than half Karasuk, but maybe thats just due to overlap. It may be that both of these samples were the offspring of an Indo-Iranian and a 50/50 WSHG/Kra001 type population, or both samples descend from a population which already was admixed with Indo-Iranians hence the near 50% steppe_mlba. both of these samples had haplogroup Q.
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  7. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    Yes, the Z4908 apparently passed through Estonia to Scandinavia, where the founder effect occurred. Perhaps L1025 came from there, or L1025 stayed on the coast, perhaps in the area of modern Russian Kaliningrad.
    Likely not from Scandinavia (in Balts) - because 40% of Y in Balts would then come from this source, but there is no significant Germanic admixture in Balts. Due to Y phylogeny and low to non existant Siberian in Balts, I previously thought it was coming from Scandinavia, but perhaps there was a parallel spread of L550, where some L550-L1025 subclades went or stayed South while others went into Scandinavia.

    Now it seems to me this low Siberian high N very Baltoid genetically population got created somewhere already East of Baltics. Likely as a result of incorporation of some Baltoid tribes into FU trade network with further bilingualism and complete assimilation into FU, creating perhaps "pre-proto-Baltic Finns" (Baltic Finns after Baltic loanwords, before Germanic loanwords).

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  9. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Likely not from Scandinavia (in Balts) - because 40% of Y in Balts would then come from this source, but there is no significant Germanic admixture in Balts. Due to Y phylogeny and low to non existant Siberian in Balts, I previously thought it was coming from Scandinavia, but perhaps there was a parallel spread of L550, where some L550-L1025 subclades went or stayed South while others went into Scandinavia.

    Now it seems to me this low Siberian high N very Baltoid genetically population got created somewhere already East of Baltics. Likely as a result of incorporation of some Baltoid tribes into FU trade network with further bilingualism and complete assimilation into FU, creating perhaps "pre-proto-Baltic Finns" (Baltic Finns after Baltic loanwords, before Germanic loanwords).
    I think rather the opposite. The distribution of Z4908 shows the absence of any predominant population. From this it is clear that this group has not preserved the FU language. Perhaps this group was warriors or traders, so it entered all the populations of the region. A more complicated issue with CTS9976, it is a related group, but less mobile. Apparently, it was they who came into contact with the Volga group Z1934, which ultimately led to the merger of the languages of these two groups and the emergence of the Finnish language proper.

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  11. #106
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    As for archaeology, if there was an influence of the VL29 group on the Proto-Balto-Slavs, then it was in the LBA when the Bondariha culture was formed. Perhaps the Y56680 subclades are a sign of this. But L550 looks very Baltic, all its subclades spread from the north. In the Iron Age, on the example of the archeology of the Moscow region, there is a tendency for the movement of Balto-Slavic cultures, for example, the Uhnovo culture, to the territory of the Diyakovo culture, which is considered FU. From the east, this culture was driven by the Ananyino culture. The border between them in the east was slightly east of modern Moscow. The archeology of the Iron Age of the Moscow region is very mixed, but the Baltic component apparently still prevailed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    It is really similar to I6717, only with small differences in terms of WSHG/KRA001. Thus by ~1500 BC you probably had a population which formed on the basis of Kra001 related migrations mixed with WSHG related people, but from ones further to the west than the Altai. And then they were back into the Krasnoyarsk region..
    I know some of the proposed origins of the Karasuk culture are quite complex, however there is usually some resurgent local element described, alongside the dominant Fëdorovo component. I remember a few Karasuk samples having at least some "Nganasan-like" admixture. That was quite a while ago though and probably in G25.

    Rise493 https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-YP832/ and I6717 https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-F2019/ belong to old/divergent branches. They don't seem to be related (in their uniparentals at least).

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  15. #108
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    For those interested in more detailed maps etc., pdf is available here:

    Черных - Древняя металлургия Северной Евразии.pdf

    https://vk.com/wall-9029295_73160

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  17. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    As for archaeology, if there was an influence of the VL29 group on the Proto-Balto-Slavs, then it was in the LBA when the Bondariha culture was formed. Perhaps the Y56680 subclades are a sign of this. But L550 looks very Baltic, all its subclades spread from the north. In the Iron Age, on the example of the archeology of the Moscow region, there is a tendency for the movement of Balto-Slavic cultures, for example, the Uhnovo culture, to the territory of the Diyakovo culture, which is considered FU. From the east, this culture was driven by the Ananyino culture. The border between them in the east was slightly east of modern Moscow. The archeology of the Iron Age of the Moscow region is very mixed, but the Baltic component apparently still prevailed.
    In Valter Lang “ Fortified Settlements in the Eastern Baltic: From Earlier Research to New Interpretations”
    There is an interesting map:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...piola-Ware.png
    South-West type of Tapiola Ware matches L550 quite well.
    Striated Pottery matches Baltic L1025, even hotspot in is NE Lithuania.
    North - West type of Tapiola Ware would be some other N.

    Except I am not sure if Tapiola Ware was Finnic, and Striated Pottery is normally considered Baltic, although it is disputed lately.

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  19. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    I know some of the proposed origins of the Karasuk culture are quite complex, however there is usually some resurgent local element described, alongside the dominant Fëdorovo component. I remember a few Karasuk samples having at least some "Nganasan-like" admixture. That was quite a while ago though and probably in G25.

    Rise493 https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-YP832/ and I6717 https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-F2019/ belong to old/divergent branches. They don't seem to be related (in their uniparentals at least).
    Aside from I6717, none of the Krasnoyarsk_mlba samples seem to want KRA001 ancestry, but those all date inbetween 1900-1500 iirc. Same thing with the Karasuk samples which are available G25. I get 5% on RISE495 for example, compared to the ~40% of Siberian ancestry from other populations in that sample. With the rest its 0.

    I6717 seems to have a 14000 year old y-dna relationship with that Kyzlbulak_Mlba2 sample. Modern day distribution of that old clade all over the place as well.

    Karasuk isn't generally held to have been derived from Fedorovo. it has gone from being attributed to "north mongoloids" to being a Siberian Andronovo-influenced culture, to being considered to be an Andronovo derivative. A lot of this is due to divergent ceramic traditions, Kuzmina distinctively called them genetically/ethnically unrelated to Andronovo because of this and even tried to hint at a Turkic connection due to the pottery practises having similarties with those of Siberian Turkic ethnic groups. Another issue is that with the old chronology you only had Fedorovo in Siberia from about 1500 BC to 1200 BC, and this was held to be the only Andronovo migration into the region. Nowadays more archaeolgists seem to connect the early Karasuk sites with Alakul, which would make sense with the Alakul expansion in the central Asian steppes in the 2nd millenium b.c, and would provide a nice linguistic connection between the Andronovo groups in Southwestern Central Asia.
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