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Thread: Persistence of male neolithic lineages in ancient Orkney

  1. #11
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    it’s always made me curious how an island group in a largely treeless landscape got a name which most see as serving from Celtic for islands of the Pigs. The name is attested by the 4th century BC: This just seems an unlikely name to me.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    Are there Medieval samples as well? Because one of them, KD001, is downstream of U106. Pretty unusual for both BA and IA Britain...

    Code:
    Sample_name	Hg	Hg_marker	Total_reads	Valid_markers	QC-score	QC-1	QC-2	QC-3
    KD001	R1b1a1b1a1a1c1a2b1	R-S25234*(xS11477)	3911947	9282	0.951	0.994	1.0	0.957
    I couldn't find even a preprint associated with the ENA project.
    Any more info on this one?!?
    Y-DNA: 5th GGF Capt. Johann Martin Weber, 1st PA Rifles, Rev. War, b. 1739 in Germany, d. 1804 Paxton, PA. : R1b-U106-DF98 - S4004 - FGC14817(5 SNPs) with 6drif-3 soldier of York! Pennsylvania Scots Irish/German frontiersmen/colonial vets.

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher/O'Kennedy/MacEgan, Lorrha/Dorrha, Tipp - T2b2b. Mother's dad The O'Dwyer - O'Dwyers of Kilnamanagh/Ballagh Maguires/Fermanagh matching descendants of Irish exiles in Europe.

    Hebridean/Highland Scots both sides ;-).

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    it’s always made me curious how an island group in a largely treeless landscape got a name which most see as serving from Celtic for islands of the Pigs. The name is attested by the 4th century BC: This just seems an unlikely name to me.
    The archaeological record shows pigs were present but not significantly so. Cattle were much more common, then sheep, and then, finally, pigs. If the name "Orcas" hadn't already been attested in Pytheas, I would have guessed a Latin origin, making it "Island of the Whales." That would actually make sense. Is it possible that orca might have a shared meaning or root in Celtic and Latin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    Are there Medieval samples as well? Because one of them, KD001, is downstream of U106. Pretty unusual for both BA and IA Britain...

    Code:
    Sample_name	Hg	Hg_marker	Total_reads	Valid_markers	QC-score	QC-1	QC-2	QC-3
    KD001	R1b1a1b1a1a1c1a2b1	R-S25234*(xS11477)	3911947	9282	0.951	0.994	1.0	0.957
    I couldn't find even a preprint associated with the ENA project.
    I found the following regarding this sample.

    Academia paper giving brief summary of samples

    pdf file page 19

    Rosemarkie Cave, Highland (293466) Steven Birch Archaeo-genetics Huddersfield (K Dulias and C J Edwards) KD001 2PTAd, MSUERC-70721 1508±30 430–631 U

    Lecture on excavation by Stephen Birch

    Rosemarkie Caves Project Learnie 2B, (Smelters' Cave) NH 7566 6075. Another big cave, exploratory archaeological excavation made by HAS/NOSAS group in 2006. Remains of stone wall at entrance. Evidence of use in early medieval times ~ approx. 640-764 AD and in more recent times, by travellers in 19th century, possibly shoemakers. In 2016, members of the Rosemarkie Cave Project found the remains of a man who died around 600 AD. He has been named Rosemarkie Man.

    Article in the BBC News (with photos of remains and a facial reconstruction).

    These remains were not from Orkney, but the Rosemarkie Islands (specifically Smelter's Island) in Rosshire, Scotland.

    This result has been moved in my U106 Google Spreadsheet to row 68
    Gedmatch DNA: M032736 Gedcom: 6613110.
    Gedmatch Genesis: WH4547538
    co-administrator: Y-DNA R-U106 Haplogroup Project

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wing Genealogist View Post
    I found the following regarding this sample.

    Academia paper giving brief summary of samples

    pdf file page 19

    Rosemarkie Cave, Highland (293466) Steven Birch Archaeo-genetics Huddersfield (K Dulias and C J Edwards) KD001 2PTAd, MSUERC-70721 1508±30 430–631 U

    Lecture on excavation by Stephen Birch

    Rosemarkie Caves Project Learnie 2B, (Smelters' Cave) NH 7566 6075. Another big cave, exploratory archaeological excavation made by HAS/NOSAS group in 2006. Remains of stone wall at entrance. Evidence of use in early medieval times ~ approx. 640-764 AD and in more recent times, by travellers in 19th century, possibly shoemakers. In 2016, members of the Rosemarkie Cave Project found the remains of a man who died around 600 AD. He has been named Rosemarkie Man.

    Article in the BBC News (with photos of remains and a facial reconstruction).

    These remains were not from Orkney, but the Rosemarkie Islands (specifically Smelter's Island) in Rosshire, Scotland.

    This result has been moved in my U106 Google Spreadsheet to row 68
    Fascinating stuff. I don't know what isotope or autosomal data is available for this man but barring that his relatively low height might suggest his U106 line had indeed been in Britain for some time. As we can all see from those links, his date is in the Migration Period, but that part of Britain isn't thought to have been involved in those movements, at least as far as I know. Heinrich Härke had some interesting observations on height as an indicator in Britain in a paper I've mentioned before, "Anglo-Saxon Immigration and Ethnogenesis":

    "The 7th/8th-century average stature of male individuals in Anglo-Saxon cemeteries dropped by 15 mm (⅝ in) compared with the 5th/6th-century average.106 This development is most marked in Wessex where the average dropped by 24 mm (1 in).107 This drop is not easily explained with environmental changes; there is no evidence for a change in diet in the 7th/8th centuries, nor is there any evidence of a further influx of immigrants at this time. Given the lower average stature of Britons, the most likely explanation would be a gradual Saxonisation or Anglicisation of the material culture of native enclaves, an increasing assimilation of native populations into Anglo-Saxon communities."
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  11. #16
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    Talking of northern Scotland, the Picts and DNA, I've just spent the final part of my evening catching up on the latest episode of the BBC's "Digging for Britain". About 20 mins into episode 6 (series 9) is a look at the latest Burghead Fort discoveries. One of the site archaeologists mentions that they've been taking aDNA samples. Hopefully we've got a few more surprises in store.
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    Mother's Y: Llanvair Discoed, 1770

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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Mc View Post
    The archaeological record shows pigs were present but not significantly so. Cattle were much more common, then sheep, and then, finally, pigs. If the name "Orcas" hadn't already been attested in Pytheas, I would have guessed a Latin origin, making it "Island of the Whales." That would actually make sense. Is it possible that orca might have a shared meaning or root in Celtic and Latin?
    I thought the exact same for about decades and could it not be evidence of a name first coined about 420 years ago in a dead extremely remote outlying Italo-Celtic dialect untouched by Celtic shifts until the name was rationalised by Celtic speakers badly? However it seems it’s a borrowing into Latin from either Greek (though iud not very convincing) or a pre IE Med substrate. It’s also not a word in the large pre IE northern substrate for natural things preserved in Celtic and Germanic. So unless of course the word was common to all the predominantly Cardial type (genetically speaking) farmers who dominated the Neolithic of most of the west Med, France and the British Isies? After all Cardial is the farmer group that seem to have been skilled in sea travel. So maybe they were the most likely to have a word for whales.
    Last edited by alan; 01-28-2022 at 10:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Fascinating stuff. I don't know what isotope or autosomal data is available for this man but barring that his relatively low height might suggest his U106 line had indeed been in Britain for some time. As we can all see from those links, his date is in the Migration Period, but that part of Britain isn't thought to have been involved in those movements, at least as far as I know. Heinrich Härke had some interesting observations on height as an indicator in Britain in a paper I've mentioned before, "Anglo-Saxon Immigration and Ethnogenesis":

    "The 7th/8th-century average stature of male individuals in Anglo-Saxon cemeteries dropped by 15 mm (⅝ in) compared with the 5th/6th-century average.106 This development is most marked in Wessex where the average dropped by 24 mm (1 in).107 This drop is not easily explained with environmental changes; there is no evidence for a change in diet in the 7th/8th centuries, nor is there any evidence of a further influx of immigrants at this time. Given the lower average stature of Britons, the most likely explanation would be a gradual Saxonisation or Anglicisation of the material culture of native enclaves, an increasing assimilation of native populations into Anglo-Saxon communities."
    interesting though half an inch to an inch isn’t huge. There are some little known statistical trends that shows how height could decline without any change. For example it’s been shown that statistically on average the height of 1st, 2nd ,3rd etc sons drops in birth order even in wealthy groups where resources can’t explain it. It’s likely an epigenetic/in built gestational thing. So if the average number of sons is say 4 instead of of 1 or 2 then the collective average height of the sons would be lower - all other things bring equal.

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  17. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    it’s always made me curious how an island group in a largely treeless landscape got a name which most see as serving from Celtic for islands of the Pigs. The name is attested by the 4th century BC: This just seems an unlikely name to me.
    Its not all that strange when you consider the role of boars in IE societies, or Celtic ones in particular. Island of the Pigs doesn't have to be a discription of a noteworthy ecosystem in the isle, or that it's people were known for raising pigs.

    I've come across etymology books which state a term of salmon is also derived from Proto-Celtic *Porko, Orc is apparently an old word in Irish meaning salmon. Island of Salmon had been suggested as an etymological origin for Orcades. Maybe connected to Ligurian Porcobera, which is what they called the river Polcevera? Seems like a logical option for the name of the region as well.
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  19. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wing Genealogist View Post
    I found the following regarding this sample.

    Academia paper giving brief summary of samples

    pdf file page 19

    Rosemarkie Cave, Highland (293466) Steven Birch Archaeo-genetics Huddersfield (K Dulias and C J Edwards) KD001 2PTAd, MSUERC-70721 1508±30 430–631 U

    Lecture on excavation by Stephen Birch

    Rosemarkie Caves Project Learnie 2B, (Smelters' Cave) NH 7566 6075. Another big cave, exploratory archaeological excavation made by HAS/NOSAS group in 2006. Remains of stone wall at entrance. Evidence of use in early medieval times ~ approx. 640-764 AD and in more recent times, by travellers in 19th century, possibly shoemakers. In 2016, members of the Rosemarkie Cave Project found the remains of a man who died around 600 AD. He has been named Rosemarkie Man.

    Article in the BBC News (with photos of remains and a facial reconstruction).

    These remains were not from Orkney, but the Rosemarkie Islands (specifically Smelter's Island) in Rosshire, Scotland.

    This result has been moved in my U106 Google Spreadsheet to row 68
    Thanks for the update! A possible Pictish man?!? Interesting!
    Y-DNA: 5th GGF Capt. Johann Martin Weber, 1st PA Rifles, Rev. War, b. 1739 in Germany, d. 1804 Paxton, PA. : R1b-U106-DF98 - S4004 - FGC14817(5 SNPs) with 6drif-3 soldier of York! Pennsylvania Scots Irish/German frontiersmen/colonial vets.

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher/O'Kennedy/MacEgan, Lorrha/Dorrha, Tipp - T2b2b. Mother's dad The O'Dwyer - O'Dwyers of Kilnamanagh/Ballagh Maguires/Fermanagh matching descendants of Irish exiles in Europe.

    Hebridean/Highland Scots both sides ;-).

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