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Thread: The Moriopoulos Collection (~3000 G25 Averages), a Valentine's Day Gift

  1. #1
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    Greece United States of America

    The Moriopoulos Collection (~3000 G25 Averages), a Valentine's Day Gift

    Pretty much everyone here knows that I am a big supporter of the G25 project. As such, I am pleased to announce that I have recently surpassed 20,000 individual G25 samples in my personal collection, a very satisfying milestone indeed. Well, what better way to commemorate the occasion than to share the averages with the forum? Consider it a Valentine's Day gift to Anthrogenica, a love letter to the community.

    The samples on offer in the official datasheets (ancients + moderns) currently number ~12,550 (yielding ~1980 averages), which of course form the bulk of my own samples. The additional thousand averages I've posted below will hopefully prove useful. I should say up front that I have only ever used scaled data; perhaps there is a tool out there that could all at once convert these to unscaled for those interested. If not, somebody with coding skills should develop one!

    Many thanks to David W. for developing and maintaining this wonderful PCA. Obviously without his continued willingness to turn raw data into G25 coordinates, this project would not have been possible. Recently Altvred has also been a key contributor of supplying raw data to David, but many others have also helped out (finding and preparing samples) over the years. Many kudos to these generous individuals, as well. You know who you are. Finally, I would be remiss not to extend by gratitude to those who have posted their coords publicly on the forum, but especially to those who have PM'ed me their coords over the years. All of these contributions have been very useful in creating averages for understudied groups.

    The samples in my collection are organized by geographic region. For the most part, no genetic significance is intended by this (with a few exceptions-- e.g., Ciscaucasians are given their own category as opposed to being grouped with Europeans; also, ancient outliers found in one region that clearly recently originated from another region are grouped with the latter, etc.). I have just found that presenting samples this way is the simplest way to break up the data, especially when I color-code them in PAST. Here's what more than 20,000 samples looks like in Global PCA:

     


    The G25 project has mostly focused on understanding the history of pre-modern ethnicities, that is to say groups that existed before the Contact Period. The Age of Exploration/Discovery initiated unprecedentedly dramatic demographic shifts in much of the world. In my opinion, diasporas that emerged from this chain of events are best understood separately. That's why I haven't included Afrikaners, Cape Coloureds, African-Americans, French Canadians, the Utah White Americans cohort, Latin Americans, heavily colonial European-mixed indigenous groups (e.g., the Aleuts, Cree, Tlingits, Maori, Forest Yukaghirs), etc. in the averages below. I might post those later as a companion piece.

    So without further ado, here are the averages. Ancients are not segregated from moderns. These are all real samples, too. No sims here.

    AVERAGES (no sims)
    Southern Africa
    Central Africa
    West Africa
    East Africa
    North Africa
    Oceania
    East Asia
    Siberia
    Central Asia
    South Asia
    America
    Europe
    Ciscaucasia
    West Asia

    But wait-- there's more! Many simulated G25 coords have been made over the years to help fill in gaps in the ancient DNA record. I make use of DMXX's excellent AASI sims all the time. I have also recently made very good use of Genoplot's impressive K13 to G25 simulation tool. This is experimental and isn't a replacement for real G25 coords, obviously, but for elementary plotting, distance runs, and modelling, I think it's really cool. Although G25 is fairly exhaustive, there are still a lot of interesting groups missing, some of which do have K13 representation. Naturally, I capitalized on this "better-than-nothing" opportunity to "fill in the gaps" and maybe got a little carried away! I've converted hundreds of K13 coords to G25 sims this way. My Greek friend 23abc has also joined me in this venture. This has increased my G25 collection by ~600 individuals. Mandaeans, Karaites, Tigrinya, oh my! Below is a list of the same averages as above, but enhanced with averages for the K13 sims. Also included are the AASI sims. Enjoy!

    AVERAGES (with sims)
    Southern Africa (same as no sims file)
    Central Africa (same as no sims file)
    West Africa
    East Africa
    North Africa
    Oceania (same as no sims file)
    East Asia
    Siberia (same as no sims file)
    Central Asia (same as no sims file)
    South Asia
    America
    Europe
    Ciscaucasia (same as no sims file)
    West Asia
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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  3. #2
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    L1b2a

    Distance: 1.3313% / 0.01331282
    28.0 Moroccan_Casablanca
    21.4 Moroccan_Oujda
    20.0 Berber_Morocco_Ghomara
    18.8 Yemenite_Mahra
    6.8 Yoruba_Nigeria
    2.4 Berber_Morocco_Senhaja_de_Srair
    1.8 Moroccan_Errachidia
    0.8 Moroccan_Morisco

    This is what I got using just Moroccan references and Yemenite mahra and Yoruba still working on different models but very accurate according to family history thanks
    Last edited by Gentica277282; 02-14-2022 at 11:20 PM.
    With high coverage Guanche sample 011
    SUCCESS p=.961
    56 Guanche.SG_11
    31 LBN_IA
    13 COG_MatangaiTuru_IA

    SUCCESS p=.985
    55 Guanche.SG_11
    32 Canaanite_MLBA
    13 COG_MatangaiTuru_IA

    SUCCESS p=.978
    50 Guanche.SG_11
    40 BedouinB.DG
    11 COG_MatangaiTuru_IA




    R11109 MALE 1 CE 1749.5 400 CE ARCHAEOLOGY Isola_Sacra Y-DNA: J-Y15222 mtDNA: X2m'n

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  5. #3
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    Global25 scaled coordinates simulated with Genoplot from the unofficial spreadsheet of modern Eurogenes K13 populations (to be taken with a grain of salt)

    https://pastebin.com/raw/f8VgGQgB

    Eurogenes K13 coordinates Genoplot couldn't simulate

    Code:
    English_North,50.43,23.89,13.25,5.51,3.41,0.67,1.00,0.11,0.29,0.60,0.40,0.19,0.18
    German_Westphalia,48.90,25.72,11.45,6.87,3.44,0.81,1.08,0.20,0.26,0.57,0.25,0.06,0.39
    Persian_Eastcentral,3.29,4.79,3.67,39.54,25.33,5.16,15.06,0.17,1.02,0.62,0.51,0.37,1.89
    Sardinian,23.14,1.64,49.58,0.38,22.02,2.41,0,0.13,0.03,0,0.31,0.26,0.1
    Scottish,51.37,23.36,12.70,6.44,2.73,0.57,1.18,0.16,0.32,0.63,0.27,0.14,0.05
    Scottish_East,51.30,23.28,12.93,6.42,2.73,0.47,1.14,0.15,0.28,0.72,0.34,0.12,0.10
    Scottish_North-Highlands,51.33,23.07,13.18,6.37,2.40,0.60,1.03,0.19,0.36,0.84,0.33,0.10,0.19
    Scottish_Northeast,51.34,23.90,13.12,6.02,2.29,0.50,1.04,0.26,0.31,0.61,0.27,0.20,0.16
    She,0.14,0.16,0.08,0.15,0.05,0.23,0.30,84.56,14.06,0.08,0.03,0.07,0.10
    Swedish,48.45,30.99,9.81,3.64,2.43,0.84,1.41,0.21,0.68,0.56,0.40,0.32,0.23
    Tujia,0.08,0.06,0.20,0.07,0.09,0.03,0.23,81.06,17.07,0.15,0.54,0.22,0.21
    Vietnamese,0.05,1.24,0.02,0.14,0.05,0.24,5.11,86.45,5.20,0.16,1.06,0.16,0.12
    Welsh,50.73,23.16,13.73,6.18,2.84,0.53,0.97,0.13,0.32,0.58,0.4,0.25,0.12
    Last edited by Ajeje Brazorf; 02-14-2022 at 10:33 PM.

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  7. #4
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    Scotland England Australia Star of David Turkey Egypt
    Amazing stuff! Is there any chance we can get an idea how many samples make up the averages? I get some people are more private about their coordinates. Where did you find the Greek Sephardi average? Is it just one sample from Thessaloniki?

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  9. #5
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    iberia_northeast_c.8-12CE
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    R-L21>DF73>Y185053
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    U3a1c1 10831G

    Catalonia Andorra European Union
    Target: Miquel_scaled
    Distance: 0.7703% / 0.00770266 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    29.2 Spanish_Valencia_Alicante_(Valencian)
    16.2 Iberia_Andalusia_Late_Antiquity
    11.2 Bell_Beaker_Hungary_o3
    10.0 Czechia_EIA_Hallstatt_Bylany_o3_(low_res)
    7.6 France_EBA_Brittany_(low_res)
    5.8 Iberia_Catalonia_IA_(low_res)
    4.6 Spanish_Navarre_(Navarrese)
    4.4 Roma_Spain_Madrid_o
    4.0 Sicily_EBA_(High_Steppe)
    3.8 Spanish_Canarias_(Canarian)
    3.2 Lebanon_Medieval_(Iberian_Profile)


    Distance to: Miquel_scaled
    0.01373602 Spanish_Valencia_Alicante_(Valencian)
    0.01654929 Spanish_Galicia_(Galician)
    0.01763776 Portuguese
    0.01968261 Spanish_Andalusia_(Andalusian)
    0.01971801 Spanish_Baleares_Ibiza_(Catalan)
    0.01992744 Spanish_Extremadura_(Extremaduran)
    0.02076124 Spanish_Murcia_(Murcian)
    0.02103603 Iberia_Catalonia_High_Medieval
    0.02137877 Spanish_Castilla-La_Mancha_(Castilian)
    0.02145834 Spanish_Cantabria_(Cantabrian)
    0.02161404 Spanish_Baleares_Mallorca_(Catalan)
    0.02198542 Spanish_Castile_and_Leon_(Castilian)
    0.02221106 Spanish_Valencia_(Valencian)
    0.02233146 Spanish_Catalonia_Girona_(Catalan)
    0.02240019 Spanish_Valencia_Castellon_(Valencian)
    0.02261782 Spanish_Catalonia_(Catalan)
    0.02305706 Spanish_Aragon_(Aragonese)
    0.02319062 Spanish_Baleares_(Catalan)
    0.02323574 Spanish_Catalonia_Peri-Barcelona_(Catalan)
    0.02346482 Spanish_Catalonia_Pirineu_(Catalan)
    0.02349208 Spanish_Navarre_(Navarrese)
    0.02368995 Spanish_Catalonia_Camp_de_Tarragona_(Catalan)
    0.02417749 Spanish_Catalonia_Penedes_(Catalan)
    0.02439750 Spanish_Catalonia_Lleida_(Catalan)
    0.02544443 Spanish_Catalonia_Terres_de_l'Ebre_(Catalan)

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  11. #6
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    Here's best , North Macedonian average from 23 samples, with all region covered, all rest are joke

    Code:
    Macedonian(avg)_scaled,0.125313857,0.143189619,0.024243429,-0.006336952,0.026202619,-0.002974905,0.002842381,0.001901,-4.7619E-08,0.010986238,0.000819762,0.001577143,-0.002378524,0.007654429,-0.015950381,-0.000372619,0.009480762,-0.000102571,0.004716762,-0.004121,-0.010065619,7.05714E-05,0.003574143,0.002025476,-0.000159524
    Target: Me
    Distance: 2.1519% / 0.02151936
    76.0 __IllyricRoman
    21.8 __Slavic
    1.8 __Alanic
    0.4 __Levantine

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  13. #7
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    Greece United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Amazing stuff! Is there any chance we can get an idea how many samples make up the averages? I get some people are more private about their coordinates. Where did you find the Greek Sephardi average? Is it just one sample from Thessaloniki?
    The only easy way I can think of to do that would be to copy the group name line in PAST and just paste it in a spreadsheet. You can search for the sample and then count every instance the group name appears. That would tell you how many samples. Here ya go: https://pastebin.com/ZCE44MxT

    I'm still working on the sheets and some of the K13-based Greek sims I only have in average form (I haven't gotten all the individual coords yet from 23abc, but it's in the pipeline).

    There are only two Sephardic Jews from Greece, both from Salonica. I believe the coords were posted on the forum publicly but I don't recall exactly where.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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  15. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasile View Post
    Here's best , North Macedonian average from 23 samples, with all region covered, all rest are joke

    Code:
    Macedonian(avg)_scaled,0.125313857,0.143189619,0.024243429,-0.006336952,0.026202619,-0.002974905,0.002842381,0.001901,-4.7619E-08,0.010986238,0.000819762,0.001577143,-0.002378524,0.007654429,-0.015950381,-0.000372619,0.009480762,-0.000102571,0.004716762,-0.004121,-0.010065619,7.05714E-05,0.003574143,0.002025476,-0.000159524
    I actually have relied on what you've collected to create my North Macedonian average! Probably not exactly the same samples, but I've used most of the ones you've posted (as well as others who have posted theirs).

    Code:
    North_Macedonian:Central_Vardar
    North_Macedonian:East1_Delcevo
    North_Macedonian:East2
    North_Macedonian:Gevgelija_Aspar
    North_Macedonian:Kavadarci_Marija
    North_Macedonian:Kicevo_Angela
    North_Macedonian:Krushevo_Nikola
    North_Macedonian:Kumanovo
    North_Macedonian:Kumanovo_JohnnyP
    North_Macedonian:Macedonian2_(Skopje)
    North_Macedonian:Macedonian6
    North_Macedonian:Macedonian7
    North_Macedonian:Macedonian8
    North_Macedonian:Northeast
    North_Macedonian:Northeast+Southwest
    North_Macedonian:Northeast2
    North_Macedonian:Ohrid_Hristina
    North_Macedonian:Ohrid/Prilep_Aleksander
    North_Macedonian:Pelagonia_Prilep
    North_Macedonian:Pelagonia_Vojnik
    North_Macedonian:Skopje
    North_Macedonian:Skopje/Stip/Veles_Vasile
    North_Macedonian:Skopje+Pavleshenci
    North_Macedonian:Struga
    North_Macedonian:Strumica
    North_Macedonian:Tetovo_Valentins
    North_Macedonian:Veles
    North_Macedonian:Veles_Atanas
    North_Macedonian:Vratnica
    North_Macedonian_o:Macedonian3
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

  16. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Michalis Moriopoulos For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (02-15-2022),  AlluGobi (02-22-2022),  altvred (02-15-2022),  Andrewid (02-15-2022),  Greekscholar (02-15-2022),  JMcB (02-15-2022),  vasil (02-15-2022)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    733
    Sex

    Scotland England Australia Star of David Turkey Egypt
    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    There are only two Sephardic Jews from Greece, both from Salonica. I believe the coords were posted on the forum publicly but I don't recall exactly where.
    Ah those two! I understood they were Turkish born, but than again many Smyrna/Izmiri Jews also have recent origins in Salonica. As they are both said to be Sabbateans I think how you have labelled them is good from a genetics POV, but some might disagree. They were pretty ostracised from former Jewish community.

  18. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Seabass For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (02-15-2022),  AlluGobi (02-22-2022),  Andrewid (02-15-2022),  Greekscholar (02-15-2022),  JMcB (02-15-2022),  Michalis Moriopoulos (02-15-2022),  passenger (02-15-2022)

  19. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    741
    Location
    Florida Native
    Ethnicity
    Greek Peloponnese
    Nationality
    US since the 1890's
    Y-DNA (P)
    G2A2A

    Distance to: Anthony_C_scaled
    0.02361456 Greek_Central_Greece
    0.02432394 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.02445577 Greek_Peloponnese_Arcadia
    0.02549241 Albanian
    0.02693586 Greek_Peloponnese_Messinia_Messini
    0.02822103 Italian_Marche_(Marchigiano)
    0.02913092 Greece_MBA_Helladic_Logkas
    0.02969970 Greek_Peloponnese_Elis
    0.02988451 Greek_East_Macedonia_and_Thrace
    0.03039873 India_Roopkund_c.1800CE_(Balkan_Greek_Profile)
    0.03053792 Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia_Sparta_Municipality
    0.03083239 Greek_Eastern_Rumelia
    0.03092897 Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia_Monemvasia_Municipality
    0.03112921 Greek_Heptanese_Corfu
    0.03127192 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03129599 Greek_East_Macedonia_and_Thrace_(Peloponnesian_Pro file)
    0.03157852 Italian_Molise_(Molisan)
    0.03186156 Scythian_IA_Moldova
    0.03203734 Greek_Peloponnese_Argolis
    0.03232855 Italian_Tuscany_(Tuscan)
    0.03240740 Italy_Medieval_Chiusi_(Central_Italian_Profile)
    0.03262541 Italian_Umbria_(Umbrian)
    0.03291002 Italian_(Central_Italian_Profile)
    0.03311912 Italian_Apulia_(Apulian)
    0.03323043 Italian_Abruzzo_(Abruzzese)

    Target: Anthony_C_scaled
    Distance: 0.0117% / 0.01174951
    30.1 Hungary_Medieval_Szolad_o1
    17.3 Greek_Peloponnese_Laconia_Monemvasia_Municipality
    9.4 Russia_Viking_Age_Kurevanikha_(Mixed_Balto-Slavic-Finnic-Norse_Profile)
    7.2 Greece_EBA_Helladic_Manika
    6.0 Crimea_Late_Antiquity_ACD
    5.7 Greece_EBA_Cycladic_Koufonisi
    5.1 North_Macedonian_o
    4.4 Greek_Epirus
    3.6 Greece_BA_Minoan_Petras
    2.7 Sweden_Early_Viking_Age_Oland_(Mixed_Norse-Finnic_Profile)
    2.5 Iberia_Catalonia_Empuries_Hellenistic_(Classical_G reek_Profile)
    2.3 Roma_Turkey_Balkans
    1.6 Russia_Early_Medieval_Belgorod_Saltovo-Mayaki_(low_res)
    1.4 Srubnaya_MLBA_o
    0.7 Yamnaya_Mereke


    Target: Anthony_C_scaled
    Distance: 0.0135% / 0.01348689 | R4P
    30.5 Hungary_Medieval_Szolad_o1
    29.1 Greece_EBA_Cycladic_Koufonisi
    23.1 Russia_Viking_Age_Kurevanikha_(Mixed_Balto-Slavic-Finnic-Norse_Profile)
    17.3 Crimea_Late_Antiquity_ACD

    Target: Anthony_C_scaled
    Distance: 0.0139% / 0.01391613 | R3P
    57.3 Greek_Central_Greece
    35.6 Hungary_Medieval_Szolad_o1
    7.1 Russia_Viking_Age_Kurevanikha_(Mixed_Balto-Slavic-Finnic-Norse_Profile)
    Last edited by TonyC; 02-15-2022 at 01:29 AM.
    88.0 Greek_Peloponnese + 12.0 Swiss_French Distance: 1.4582% / 0.01458192 | R2P

  20. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to TonyC For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (02-15-2022),  AlluGobi (02-22-2022),  Andrewid (02-15-2022),  Greekscholar (02-15-2022),  IronHorse (02-17-2022),  JMcB (02-15-2022),  Michalis Moriopoulos (02-15-2022),  Miqui Rumba (02-15-2022),  Trelvern (02-15-2022)

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