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Thread: Gaulish Y-DNA

  1. #1
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    Gaulish Y-DNA

    Modern France:
    (from Eupedia)

    R1b - 58.5%
    I1 - 8.5%
    E1b1b - 7.5%
    I2 - 6.5%
    J2 - 6%
    G - 5.5%
    R1a - 3%
    J1 - 1.5%
    T - 1.0%
    Q - 0.5%
    other - 1.5%

    Ancient Gauls:

    https://www.cell.com/iscience/pdf/S2...22)00364-9.pdf

    R1b - 69.0%
    G - 17.2%
    I1 - 6.9%
    I2 - 6.9%

    Haplogroups such as E1b1b, J2, J1 and T were not detected among ancient Gauls.

    These 4 haplogrups probably came to France with Greek and later Roman settlers.

    BTW is there a better source on modern French Y-DNA frequencies than Eupedia?

    =====

    As for R1b subclades this is how it looks like now (DF27 > U152 > Z290 > U106):

     

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Haplogroups such as E1b1b, J2, J1 and T were not detected among ancient Gauls.

    These 4 haplogrups probably came to France with Greek and later Roman settlers.
    A bit premature to say such a thing, these are but 49 low coverage samples.
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

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    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.497"
    Ruderico

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    Berber_IA_EMA,9.6
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    RY'N NI YMA O HYD!

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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Modern France:
    (from Eupedia)

    R1b - 58.5%
    I1 - 8.5%
    E1b1b - 7.5%
    I2 - 6.5%
    J2 - 6%
    G - 5.5%
    R1a - 3%
    J1 - 1.5%
    T - 1.0%
    Q - 0.5%
    other - 1.5%

    Ancient Gauls:

    https://www.cell.com/iscience/pdf/S2...22)00364-9.pdf

    R1b - 69.0%
    G - 17.2%
    I1 - 6.9%
    I2 - 6.9%

    Haplogroups such as E1b1b, J2, J1 and T were not detected among ancient Gauls.

    These 4 haplogrups probably came to France with Greek and later Roman settlers.

    BTW is there a better source on modern French Y-DNA frequencies than Eupedia?

    =====

    As for R1b subclades this is how it looks like now (DF27 > U152 > Z290 > U106):

     
    Take E1b1b as an example and say the percentage was indeed lower, but not zero, among Iron Age Gauls. What are the chance to have it in such a low sample if it was e.g. at 4 percent? Quite high actually, even more so, if it would have been not randomly distributed and concentrated in specific regions which were probably not even tested yet. I also guess that a large fraction of e.g. E1b1b came with the backflow from Central and South Eastern Europe, once the La Tene Celts expanded into areas like Noricum, Pannonia and the Balkans. So it came later, probably, to many regions, but within the pre-Roman Iron Age timeframe.
    It would, however, suprise me if the Iron Age Celts/Hallstatt inhabitants from the Alpine zone and Ligurians would have had no E-V13. That would be a big suprise for me.

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  7. #4
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    What about L21? My French-Canadian great-great-grandfather was L21; family originally Poitevin.

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  9. #5
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    I think it's probably just the sample. For instance, unlikely G2, (probably P303) was at a level of 17% among all Gauls. A level of R1b at 69% is probably accurate among all males in the country of ancient France at the time. Would have expected a bit higher honestly.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 03-18-2022 at 02:44 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster 1100 BC
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Field: R-U106
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    I think it's probably just the sample. For instance, unlikely G2, (probably P303) was at a level of 17% among all Gauls. A level of R1b at 69% is probably accurate among all males in the country of ancient France at the time. Would have expected a bit higher honestly.
    I would expect most Gaulish G2a to fall under G-L497. We've seen it in different Celtic-related studies so far so not really surprising. Britain is the smoking gun because there was no G2a in Britain before the late BA.

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    I don't understand why when it comes to haplogroups such as E1b1b, J2, J1 or T among the modern Europeans some assume this is a legacy of the ancient Greeks or Romans?
    It's already clear that at least E1b1b or J2 were already detected in the Eastern Hallstatt zone and could have been further distributed around Europe through these Eastern Hallstatt people migrating in different parts of the Hallstatt realm.

    In fact I would argue that the more sophisticated and societies higher on the civilization ladder have had less descendants than some poor tribal societies and less demographic impact onto other societies and this hasn't changed much even today. The birth rates in the European societies today are quite low compared to those in Asia or Africa. This can be contributed to different factors but they are mainly related to the level of civilization where the people are more individualistic and tend to give more attention to their careers and where they only have as much as they can afford for quality life.

    I believe the history repeats itself and what we were witnessing with the Roman Empire and the huge Near Eastern input which was yet another migrational wave from the East, its taking its course in most of the Western world in the last century or so.

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  15. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Modern France:
    (from Eupedia)

    R1b - 58.5%
    I1 - 8.5%
    E1b1b - 7.5%
    I2 - 6.5%
    J2 - 6%
    G - 5.5%
    R1a - 3%
    J1 - 1.5%
    T - 1.0%
    Q - 0.5%
    other - 1.5%

    Ancient Gauls:

    https://www.cell.com/iscience/pdf/S2...22)00364-9.pdf

    R1b - 69.0%
    G - 17.2%
    I1 - 6.9%
    I2 - 6.9%

    Haplogroups such as E1b1b, J2, J1 and T were not detected among ancient Gauls.

    These 4 haplogrups probably came to France with Greek and later Roman settlers.
    I believe that by now it's become obvious that Celts in general didn't carry E1b1b, J2, J1 and T in any statistically meaningful %. The study about Britain had 0 such samples and they only appear in very low numbers in some of the eastern La Tene migration contact zones between Celts and other populations, but this doesn't mean that we'll never find any sample from these haplogroups in western Europe before the Roman era. J2 was recently found in Neolithic Belgium.
    Last edited by Bruzmi; 03-19-2022 at 12:29 AM.

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  17. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    I don't understand why when it comes to haplogroups such as E1b1b, J2, J1 or T among the modern Europeans some assume this is a legacy of the ancient Greeks or Romans?
    E1b1b was in Eastern Europe (Ukraine) already in Neolithic times - in Trypillian culture.

    So I'm not generalizing about the whole Europe. I just talked about France specifically.

    I assume this only because they have not been detected among Gauls so far (but I realize the sample size is small).

    More interestingly - they were also not detected in Pre-Roman Britain despite a much larger sample size (n=160).

    Haplogroups detected in Pre-Roman Iron Age Britain (in total 160 samples):

    R1b-L21
    R1b-DF27
    R1b-U152>L2
    other R1b subclades
    G2a-L497
    I2a2a-M223
    I2a1a-M26
    R1b-U106>S264 (one sample)
    I1-M253 (one sample)
    F
    Last edited by Tomenable; 03-18-2022 at 03:45 PM.

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  19. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    What about L21? My French-Canadian great-great-grandfather was L21; family originally Poitevin.
    I'm sure L21 was among Gauls (at least in Armorica).

    As was DF27 (even my subclade of DF27 - L617 - has been confirmed in Iron Age France).

    And U152 too, of course.

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