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Thread: Ancient genomes reveal origin and rapid trans-Eurasian migration of 7th century Avar

  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    I think during this time priod you had both Germanics on the Danubian side and east of the upper Tisza. But given the autosomal profile of the peoples, I wonder if the I1 lines were assimilated on the Sarmatian side, or the Pannonian side (or both)? You also had that one Avar sample which had significant Alanic ancestry, did not have noticeable Slavic imput, yet carried R-Z92.
    Those on the Danubian side were Roman foederarti? I think these Sarmatians most likely had a prolonged contact with the Bastarnae. They were from not too far away, and we know they mixed with Sarmatians, and they were also outside the Roman rule, so there was no border separating them. And A181028 is very similar to the scy303 Germanic (Swedish-viking like)

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    I have a hard time seeing all of them just simply being a two-way between Vekerzug and Sarmatians proper concerning the history and archaeology of the region. Several of the samples carry I1 for example, which fits with that some of the territories conquered by the Iazyges were inhabited by Germanic peoples (although this mixing could have been centuries old perhaps not obviously reflected in terms of autosomal DNA). Celtic populations were present also during the Sarmatian migration period, and then you have Getae/Dacians to the east. All of that on top of the native Pannonian populations.
    The problem is, In eastern Hungary/Vekerzug area, there were WHG-rich locals, some very EEF-rich Thracians, a smaller number of "proper Celts", and even one Balto-Slavic-related sample.
    These are all from IA eastern Hungary, plus the Vekerzug enclave in Slovakia:

    Code:
    Local:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12103,0.125205,0.141159,0.07203,0.064277,0.04647,0.017849,0.005875,0.007846,0.009613,-0.004374,0.002598,-0.001049,-0.002825,-0.001101,-0.00095,0.016706,0.020601,0.014696,0.007542,0.008879,0.009358,0.005193,0.007025,-0.005061,-0.010059
    Local:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I5288,0.12862,0.120848,0.053551,0.050065,0.038776,0.006414,0.000235,0.001846,-0.003272,-0.007107,0.001137,-0.003297,0.00223,0.008808,-0.00095,0.005171,0.007432,0.002534,0.007919,0.003752,-0.002246,0.008037,0,-0.006266,0.002036
    Local:Scythian_HUN:DA197,0.124067,0.145221,0.064488,0.034884,0.037545,0.010598,-0.003995,0.011538,0.008795,0.00328,0.003735,-0.001199,-0.00223,0.010046,-0.00855,0.004508,0.011213,-0.006334,0.001885,0.000125,0.002371,0.000742,0.000493,-0.008314,-0.006466
    Local:Scythian_HUN:I20745,0.130897,0.135065,0.075801,0.070091,0.040623,0.017849,0.00282,-0.000923,0.001841,-0.016401,0,-0.007643,0.012785,0.006744,0.00095,0.007027,0.014212,-0.001014,0.011816,0.004752,0.001497,-0.00507,-0.000616,-0.008676,-0.001916
    Local:Scythian_HUN:I20766,0.141141,0.147252,0.07203,0.046189,0.054164,0.013945,-0.001645,0.017999,-0.003477,-0.007836,-0.010068,-0.002248,0.011298,-0.003578,-0.00095,0.010077,-0.000782,0.009755,0.007416,0.00075,0.007612,0.000618,-0.002095,-0.014098,0.002395
    Local:Scythian_HUN:DA191,0.122929,0.131003,0.083721,0.038437,0.047701,0.013108,0.00987,0.016845,0.004909,-0.001276,-0.001949,-0.006744,0.008176,-0.001651,-0.004072,-0.000133,-0.01356,-0.002154,0.003017,0.001376,-0.003494,0.006306,-0.002835,-0.011327,-0.002754
    Local:Scythian_HUN:DA194,0.130897,0.131003,0.07203,0.04199,0.050471,0.019522,0.000235,0.008307,0.012271,0.006196,-0.000325,0.001798,0.004162,-0.009358,0.000543,0.019623,0.018515,0.00114,0.001257,0.003252,0.006863,-0.008408,0.001849,-0.014821,-0.00455
    Local:Scythian_HUN:I20746,0.12862,0.13405,0.055814,0.02261,0.041854,0.01255,-0.00141,-0.003,0.013499,0.00893,-0.001949,0.003447,-0.001784,-0.001101,-0.007193,0.007558,0.019166,0.00038,0.004274,0.008879,0.005241,-0.000618,0.003204,0.000723,0.000838
    Local:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12106,0.126344,0.135065,0.073161,0.062339,0.03693,0.022869,0.00846,0.011999,0.006136,-0.020957,0.002761,-0.002847,0.001041,0.006606,0.006243,0.006364,-0.007041,-0.000253,0.005279,0.003502,0.003993,0.001978,-0.003821,-0.006266,0.005389
    Local:Scythian_HUN:I20743,0.133173,0.137096,0.073161,0.047481,0.044624,0.011156,0.004935,0.004384,0.021066,0.006925,0,0.000599,0.002825,0.002615,-0.004207,0.012198,0.00665,-0.007601,0,0.017258,0.006239,0.008285,0.001725,-0.025305,0.001317
    Local:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I5287,0.125205,0.140143,0.080704,0.06783,0.044931,0.026495,0.006815,0.004384,0.002659,-0.016037,-0.005684,0.00015,-0.001338,0.007294,0.007736,-0.002519,-0.014994,-0.003167,0.002514,0.001626,0.008859,-0.004328,0.001232,-0.010845,0.002515
    Local:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I11719,0.134311,0.127957,0.075424,0.062985,0.044931,0.017849,0.00376,0.010846,0.003272,-0.005467,-0.000974,-0.000899,-0.001635,0.006193,0.000543,-0.004906,0.001565,-0.002787,0.000754,0.005002,0.015348,0.000124,0.001356,-0.013375,-0.008143
    Local:HUN_IA_La_Tene_o:I18182,0.130897,0.127957,0.065619,0.042313,0.044316,0.00251,0.00799,0.009692,0.008999,-0.00328,0.013641,-0.007793,0.005054,0.005092,-0.0095,0.015248,0.020861,0.00266,-0.007165,0.007003,-0.010107,-0.002473,0.003697,-0.002771,-0.003473
    Local:HUN_IA_La_Tene_o:I18183,0.124067,0.133034,0.059585,0.057171,0.045547,0.023985,0.013866,0.004384,-0.005931,-0.016401,-0.004872,-0.013338,0.007582,0.016239,-0.006379,-0.000663,0.004824,-0.007348,0.000251,0.008254,-0.001248,0.002597,-0.000246,-0.011929,0.002395
    Local:HUN_IA_La_Tene:I20752,0.12862,0.129988,0.056945,0.046512,0.048009,0.020638,0.00235,0.006692,0.008795,-0.003645,-0.010068,0.0003,-0.001487,0.008808,0.005565,-0.00305,-0.01708,0.003294,0.005782,0.002501,0.001373,0.005317,0.001972,0.000241,0.002036
    Local:HUN_IA_La_Tene:I20774,0.127482,0.133034,0.058454,0.046512,0.044008,0.019801,0.002585,0.006461,0.007567,0.000911,-0.01023,0,-0.001933,0.00812,0.00665,-0.00358,-0.017732,0.007728,0.00729,-0.002501,0.004243,0.006554,-0.000863,-0.006025,0.001437
    
    Balto-Slav:HUN_IA_La_Tene_Northeast:HUN_IA_La_Tene_o:I18226,0.127482,0.118817,0.07467,0.074613,0.029236,0.022032,0.007285,0.007846,-0.00634,-0.037358,0,-0.012889,0.019475,0.026424,-0.011129,0.000133,0.011083,-0.000253,-0.003645,0.003001,-0.003244,0.00136,0.005669,-0.005302,0.002634
    
    Celt:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I11717,0.129758,0.14319,0.061471,0.041667,0.039084,0.00753,0.009635,0.007384,0.023111,0.009294,-0.003735,0.003297,-0.002379,-0.00812,0.017644,-0.005834,-0.01017,0.003167,0.005279,0.003377,-0.001622,0.005441,-0.003081,-0.011688,0.001796
    Celt:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12110,0.12862,0.141159,0.039598,0.024548,0.052933,-0.000279,0.003995,0.005307,0.018612,0.025695,-0.004709,0.009591,-0.012042,0.002752,0.002307,-0.004773,-0.007432,0.000633,0.012821,-0.009004,-0.004367,0.000124,0.006039,-0.017231,0.006227
    Celt:HUN_IA_La_Tene_East:HUN_IA_La_Tene_low_res:I18181,0.135449,0.138112,0.058077,0.01615,0.051394,0.003068,0.014571,0.018922,0.008999,0.032256,-0.004384,0.004346,-0.00773,0.018717,0.000543,0.007558,0.004955,-0.003421,-0.005908,0.017258,0.01435,0.008779,-0.00949,-0.003374,-0.004191
    
    Balkan:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I14465,0.135449,0.149283,0.035826,-0.007429,0.04924,-0.011156,-0.003995,0.008077,0.010431,0.019499,-0.00682,0.009142,-0.007582,0.006881,-0.010993,-0.008353,0.01356,0.003674,0.006285,0.01013,-0.008735,0.010263,0.003328,-0.022292,-0.002634
    Balkan:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12099,0.125205,0.146236,0.032055,-0.015504,0.040623,-0.004183,-0.003995,0.004846,0.015544,0.028064,-0.005196,-0.000599,-0.010406,-0.002202,-0.005972,-0.005436,-0.00339,-0.005574,0.001508,-0.001626,-0.008235,-0.009398,-0.001356,0.002892,-0.000599
    Balkan:Scythian_HUN:DA198,0.124067,0.159438,0.025267,-0.028424,0.030467,-0.006693,-0.000235,-0.000692,0.014317,0.031345,0.000812,0.009142,-0.007136,0.00578,-0.011401,-0.017237,-0.001695,0.009882,0.001383,-0.009379,-0.012603,0.009645,-0.006286,0.006989,-0.009819
    Balkan:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I11721,0.119514,0.14319,0.027907,-0.010659,0.031698,-0.006136,0.00376,-0.000231,-0.000409,0.032985,0.000974,0.004196,-0.015312,-0.007019,-0.004886,0.000928,0.012386,-0.00038,0.005028,-0.008504,-0.018967,-0.002102,-0.000246,0.002169,-0.006706
    Balkan:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I11722,0.120652,0.170609,0.020365,-0.039729,0.028928,-0.023148,-0.00282,0.000231,0.014521,0.036994,-0.001786,0.004946,-0.010852,-0.000138,-0.013572,-0.005967,0.007562,0.012035,0.012193,-0.011005,-0.002496,-0.001731,0.001972,-0.001205,0.003952
    Balkan:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12097,0.121791,0.158423,0.016593,-0.042313,0.033237,-0.017012,-0.00611,-0.001615,0.019839,0.044466,0.000162,0.003897,-0.01115,0.009634,-0.020358,-0.021347,-0.001956,0.002914,0.011187,5e-04,-0.007986,0.004451,0.008504,-0.007953,-0.002275
    Balkan:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12098,0.126344,0.160454,0.020365,-0.011951,0.028621,-0.005857,0.00282,0.004154,0.005318,0.026789,0.001461,-0.006894,-0.002081,0.003991,-0.021037,-0.006364,0.001695,0.003801,0.005782,-0.017759,-0.003494,0.017064,0.009367,-0.007109,0.005748
    Balkan:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12105,0.124067,0.152329,0.028661,-0.009367,0.017234,-0.009203,-0.00047,0.001154,-0.002863,0.016583,0.003735,0.005245,-0.00669,0.007982,-0.016286,-0.00053,0.002738,-0.000887,0.000754,-0.001126,-0.00574,-0.007419,0.002958,0.002651,0.003233
    
    mixed:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12107,0.120652,0.136081,0.046009,0.022287,0.037238,-0.001116,0.003995,0.010153,0.014726,0.002734,0.001461,-0.002698,0.000892,0.016515,-0.003529,-0.002254,0.00326,-0.000887,0.001131,-0.006878,-0.005116,-0.00371,-0.003574,-0.002892,-0.003832
    mixed:Scythian_HUN:DA195,0.117238,0.138112,0.036958,0.013566,0.03139,0.003904,-0.000235,-0.000692,0.008385,0.015855,-0.003248,-0.003297,-0.001189,0.000688,-0.016015,0.011535,0.011995,0.006968,0.007416,-0.000625,-0.011605,-0.007666,0.008381,-0.004579,-0.003952
    mixed:HUN_IA_La_Tene_possible:I18220,0.136588,0.144205,0.055814,0.013889,0.043085,0.000558,0.00282,0.008077,0.002863,0.017859,-0.002273,0.005995,-0.008325,0.002477,-0.011672,0.001458,0.005085,-0.005321,0.008045,-0.0005,-0.004118,0.006059,0.000616,-0.015665,0.00012


    So it's impossible to say if these Sarmatians have some recent Celtic and Dacian from the east/west, or is it from Vekerzug locals.

    These work very well for the Sarmatians:
    Target: Hajdúnánás_average
    Distance: 0.6891% / 0.00689140
    53.8 Balkan
    38.2 Local
    8.0 Sarmatian_RUS_Caspian_steppe

    Target: Kecskemét_average
    Distance: 0.9011% / 0.00901137
    37.0 Balkan
    31.2 Sarmatian_RUS_Caspian_steppe
    22.8 Local
    9.0 Celt (could actually be Germanic)

    What's certainly new are the Sarmatian and Germanic influence.

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  3. #272
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    A key issue here is whether the Balkan element is actually fairly old in the region of the Eastern Carpathian basin and can be in part local as well, which I would say so, or not.

  4. #273
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    Not all Vekerzug samples come from eastern Slovakia/Hungary. For example, the E-V13 sample from the Vekerzug area was found in Komarno , western Slovakia to the northwest of Budapest. This does explain part of why he is an outlier in comparison to other samples.

    The Hajdunanas samples are mostly mixture of northwestern/northern Balkan ancestry and Hungarian La Tene populations, but they do have other visible ancestries.


  5. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Target: HUN_Sarmatian_Late_Transtisza:A181028
    Distance: 2.6052% / 0.02605226
    36.2 Scythian_MDA_o
    18.8 Sarmatian_MDA
    16.2 HUN_EIA
    14.8 HUN_IA_La_Tene
    14.0 BGR_IA
    A181028; Transtisza region, Hajdúnánás; circa 375-425 AD

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP6420/ YP6424+ YP6431+ YP6436+ Y84488+ BY51743+


    One of the nomads, who lived several centuries earlier and 2000 km to the east, also belongs to this subclade:

    I0247; Volga steppes, Saratov region; 385-197 BC

    In a publication from 2015, he was listed as a Scythian, but the location and autosomal profile tell us that I0247 is an Sarmatian sample:

    Distance to: I0247
    0.03030122 Sarmatian_RUS_Caspian_steppe
    0.03054740 Sarmatian_KAZ_Bisoba
    0.03165078 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
    0.03406457 Sarmatian_KAZ
    0.03417984 Sarmatian_KAZ_Aktobe
    0.03474565 Sarmatian_RUS_Pokrovka
    0.03479549 HUN_North_Transdanubia
    0.03484112 Sarmatian_Segizsay
    0.03578844 KAZ_Chanchar2_LBA
    0.03603960 KAZ_Georgievsky2_LBA
    0.03768294 Sarmatian_KAZ_Aigyrly
    0.03858007 Sarmatian_MDA

    Code:
    RUS_Scythian_IA_questionable_scaled:I0247,0.10927,0.041637,0.036204,0.062016,-0.018465,0.026216,0.001645,0.001385,-0.023111,-0.041732,0.003248,0.000749,0.003122,-0.029314,0.035287,0.015115,-0.005085,0.005194,0.000503,0.004752,-0.002121,0.006801,-0.002711,-0.004458,0.006945

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  7. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by G-Man View Post
    A181028; Transtisza region, Hajdúnánás; circa 375-425 AD

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP6420/ YP6424+ YP6431+ YP6436+ Y84488+ BY51743+


    One of the nomads, who lived several centuries earlier and 2000 km to the east, also belongs to this subclade:

    I0247; Volga steppes, Saratov region; 385-197 BC

    In a publication from 2015, he was listed as a Scythian, but the location and autosomal profile tell us that I0247 is an Sarmatian sample:

    Distance to: I0247
    0.03030122 Sarmatian_RUS_Caspian_steppe
    0.03054740 Sarmatian_KAZ_Bisoba
    0.03165078 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
    0.03406457 Sarmatian_KAZ
    0.03417984 Sarmatian_KAZ_Aktobe
    0.03474565 Sarmatian_RUS_Pokrovka
    0.03479549 HUN_North_Transdanubia
    0.03484112 Sarmatian_Segizsay
    0.03578844 KAZ_Chanchar2_LBA
    0.03603960 KAZ_Georgievsky2_LBA
    0.03768294 Sarmatian_KAZ_Aigyrly
    0.03858007 Sarmatian_MDA

    Code:
    RUS_Scythian_IA_questionable_scaled:I0247,0.10927,0.041637,0.036204,0.062016,-0.018465,0.026216,0.001645,0.001385,-0.023111,-0.041732,0.003248,0.000749,0.003122,-0.029314,0.035287,0.015115,-0.005085,0.005194,0.000503,0.004752,-0.002121,0.006801,-0.002711,-0.004458,0.006945
    I guess you could say the questionable part was labelling a 300-200 BC sample from the Volga as a Scythian.

    Badumtss...



    Alternatively this sample could also a Sauromatian, which despite being more or less the same word as Sarmatian refers to the steppe nomads east of the Don and west of the Ural during the classical times prior to the migration of the real Sarmatians during the 4th century BC, which migrated from the triangle zone in between the Urals, Caspian and Aral Sea. Think of Germani (Tungri) -> Germanic.
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  9. #276
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    A181029; North Transdanubia; 5th century AD

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC4547/ Y2167+ Y2168-


    Looks like a pure Sarmatian


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