Genetic Origin of Albanians

[xz1333]

Yes correct . In 1877 as much as I know. Before, oral tradition says we moved from Shkodra region there due to gjakmarrje but so far I do not see any genetic proof for that. We claim to be Gash I Gurit, there is actually another one not too far away from Podujeva with same haplo as me and also Gashi affiliation. But that is way too less to work with and it is really driving me crazy meanwhile

One of my relatives also claimed we are Gash I Gurit, tested J2b2-L283 but I don't know how true it is. It is possible people joined these tribes.

[xz1333]

Yeah the joining of tribes and the not necessarily homogenous DNA is a fact. But that Gash I Gurit has a J-L283 core is for sure I think, that is evident by both Albanian DNA projects .

Yeah it is possible we are Gash I Gurit, they revolted against Ottomans in 1690 together with other tribes , and they were Catholic until very late which we also were

[Bruzmi]

I14688 (600-400 BCE), a male sample from IA Çinamak was uploaded on FTDNA. The initial classification in the "Southern Arc" papers is that he's under R-L51.

On FTDNA, this sample was re-classified and uploaded under R-PF7563.



R-PF7563>Z29758 is one the major and most diverse Albanian lineages.

[excine]

I14688 (600-400 BCE), a male sample from IA Çinamak was uploaded on FTDNA. The initial classification in the "Southern Arc" papers is that he's under R-L51.

On FTDNA, this sample was re-classified and uploaded under R-PF7563.



R-PF7563>Z29758 is one the major and most diverse Albanian lineages.

This is fantastic news. For starters, it is further resolving the long-standing and widely misunderstood issue of an allegedly recent arrival of an Albanian-speaking population. Because this lineage has now been classified as such, I infer there was an ancestral Albanian population in this place for a far longer period of time, but there will still be many doubters unfortunately. This is a significant step forward into the deeper question.

[Trojet]

I14688 (600-400 BCE), a male sample from IA Çinamak was uploaded on FTDNA. The initial classification in the "Southern Arc" papers is that he's under R-L51.

On FTDNA, this sample was re-classified and uploaded under R-PF7563.

R-PF7563>Z29758 is one the major and most diverse Albanian lineages.

Nice catch! I personally never looked into this sample, as I thought he is some low coverage R-L51 as reported by the Southern Arc paper. I just looked at his BAM file and I would have to agree with FTDNA that I14688 is in fact R1b-PF7562>PF7563!

At R-PF7562 level, he has GG490/BY856/Y19696+ (3T), then at R-PF7563 level he is showing PF7563+ (1A), with no contradicting or negative reads.

It seems Lazaridis et al. classified him as R-L51 based on SNPs L51 which has two derived and one ancestral/negative read, and E207/Y410/MF659561 which has one derived and one ancestral read. So, unlike the R-PF7562>PF7563 calls, the R-L51 calls are clearly ambiguous.

I think this is a nice development with regards to Albanian Y-DNA. Just in LBA-IA Çinamak site in NE Albania, we have J2b-L283, R1b-CTS9219 aka R1b-CTS1450, and now R1b-PF7563, which together compose ~35-40% of modern Albanian Y-DNA.

[Bruzmi]

Nice catch! I personally never looked into this sample, as I thought he is some low coverage R-L51 as reported by the Southern Arc paper. I just looked at his BAM file and I would have to agree with FTDNA that I14688 is in fact R1b-PF7562>PF7563!

At R-PF7562 level, he has GG490/BY856/Y19696+ (3T), then at R-PF7563 level he is showing PF7563+ (1A), with no contradicting or negative reads.

It seems Lazaridis et al. classified him as R-L51 based on SNPs L51 which has two derived and one ancestral/negative read, and E207/Y410/MF659561 which has one derived and one ancestral read. So, unlike the R-PF7562>PF7563 calls, the R-L51 calls are clearly ambiguous.

I think this is a nice development with regards to Albanian Y-DNA. Just in LBA-IA Çinamak site in NE Albania, we have J2b-L283, R1b-CTS9219 aka R1b-CTS1450, and now R1b-PF7563, which together compose ~35-40% of modern Albanian Y-DNA.

Great analysis! It seems that FTDNA has uploaded many samples with a more thorough classification.

[Karagjoz]

I14688 (600-400 BCE), a male sample from IA Çinamak was uploaded on FTDNA. The initial classification in the "Southern Arc" papers is that he's under R-L51.

On FTDNA, this sample was re-classified and uploaded under R-PF7563.



R-PF7563>Z29758 is one the major and most diverse Albanian lineages.

Huge news, the proto albanians emerge!

[bce]

Check again:

Target: Croatia_Zadar_Relja:R3742_AD177Coverage_46.74%
Distance: 2.9749% / 0.02974887
42.8 TUR_Barcin_N
17.6 GEO_CHG
17.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
10.8 Israel_Natufian
0.2 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP

Target: Croatia_Trogir_Policija:R3670_AD168Coverage_35.99%
Distance: 3.7319% / 0.03731855
55.0 TUR_Barcin_N
19.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
8.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.6 Israel_Natufian
8.2 GEO_CHG
0.4 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP

Target: Croatia_Trogir_Dragulin:R3665_AD171Coverage_38.20%
Distance: 3.0680% / 0.03068013
61.0 TUR_Barcin_N
14.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
13.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.2 GEO_CHG
4.6 Israel_Natufian
0.4 Han

Target: TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3
Distance: 5.7416% / 0.05741599
43.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
39.2 TUR_Barcin_N
17.8 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG

Target: TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Camandras_Dalagöz_Rom
Distance: 3.1266% / 0.03126624
59.2 TUR_Barcin_N
17.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
12.0 GEO_CHG
7.2 Israel_Natufian
4.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: ALB_PostMdv
Distance: 2.2301% / 0.02230064
62.8 TUR_Barcin_N
33.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
1.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.2 GEO_CHG

Target: ALB_Mdv
Distance: 2.2292% / 0.02229232
63.6 TUR_Barcin_N
31.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0 GEO_CHG
2.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.4 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG

At most, a part of the Anatolians were as ANF as pre-medieval Albanians, but many weren't. Combined with a Slavic shift it means that if Albanians had significant ancestries from both, they would have much lower ANF today.

By the way, your own PCA showed a very low Slavic ancestry for Albanians in case you didn't notice it.

I never said those influences were very high in Albanians. I was just responding to Bruzmi who used certain models and PCAs to prove that modern Albanians are 100% identical to Cinamak.

Croatia_Imperial,0.1066143,0.1411583,-0.0294153,-0.054587,0.0001023,-0.0188717,-0.006267,-0.0050767,-0.0111803,0.0144573,0.005088,0.005545,-0.0006937,-0.0052297,-0.0113553,0.0031823,0.0180363,-0.0019003,0.0023463,-0.0042937,-0.0059477,-0.0001237,-0.0042313,0.0013253,-0.0030737
ALB_Çinamak_Anc,0.123904,0.153200,0.028823,-0.012459,0.029148,-0.005379,0.001175,0.000396,-0.000292,0.024107,0.002598,0.006573,-0.018307,-0.007648,-0.009190,-0.002462,0.010989,0.001412,0.004741,-0.008665,-0.005633,0.001767,-0.003363,0.006593,-0.005474
TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav),0.130897,0.133034,0.065242,0.037791,0.043085,0.008646,0.008225,0.019615,-0.005931,-0.016401,0.000650,-0.007343,0.008771,0.019955,-0.008143,0.003447,0.009257,-0.004434,-0.004651,-0.002626,-0.007736,-0.005193,0.011216,-0.007712,-0.007664

this is the mathematically feasible amount of those influences in Albanians. It means all proportions fit, ANF included.

[xz1333]

I never said those influences were very high in Albanians. I was just responding to Bruzmi who used certain models and PCAs to prove that modern Albanians are 100% identical to Cinamak.

Croatia_Imperial,0.1066143,0.1411583,-0.0294153,-0.054587,0.0001023,-0.0188717,-0.006267,-0.0050767,-0.0111803,0.0144573,0.005088,0.005545,-0.0006937,-0.0052297,-0.0113553,0.0031823,0.0180363,-0.0019003,0.0023463,-0.0042937,-0.0059477,-0.0001237,-0.0042313,0.0013253,-0.0030737
ALB_Çinamak_Anc,0.123904,0.153200,0.028823,-0.012459,0.029148,-0.005379,0.001175,0.000396,-0.000292,0.024107,0.002598,0.006573,-0.018307,-0.007648,-0.009190,-0.002462,0.010989,0.001412,0.004741,-0.008665,-0.005633,0.001767,-0.003363,0.006593,-0.005474
TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav),0.130897,0.133034,0.065242,0.037791,0.043085,0.008646,0.008225,0.019615,-0.005931,-0.016401,0.000650,-0.007343,0.008771,0.019955,-0.008143,0.003447,0.009257,-0.004434,-0.004651,-0.002626,-0.007736,-0.005193,0.011216,-0.007712,-0.007664

this is the mathematically feasible amount of those influences in Albanians. It means all proportions fit, ANF included.

And how can these calculators be taken serious ? By your logic this calculator should model me as 100% Albanian but it doesn't

Let's see here:

Target: xz1333
Distance: 0.6358% / 0.00635773
30.6 Montenegrin
19.0 Greek_Messenia
13.2 Sardinian
8.4 Macedonian
6.4 Albanian
5.6 French_Seine-Maritime
5.4 Italian_Lazio
3.6 Georgian_Ajar
2.6 Georgian_NorthEast
2.2 Swiss_French
1.8 Basque_Soule
0.8 Georgian_Javakheti
0.4 Italian_Bergamo



I am only 6.4 Albanian according to this calc, let's reduce the population and change the settings:

Target: xz1333
Distance: 0.8220% / 0.00821959 | R3P
52.4 Greek_Central_Macedonia
45.0 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
2.6 Georgian_Ajar

Nope still not 100% Albanian despite Albanian is first

Distance to: xz1333
0.01841633 Albanian
0.01902928 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02078061 Greek_Thessaly
0.02085061 Italian_Piedmont
0.02122682 Swiss_Italian
0.02141297 Greek_Macedonia
0.02162191 Italian_Veneto
0.02389471 Rumelia_East
0.02488209 Italian_Northeast
0.02507809 Italian_Tuscany
0.02600311 Greek_West_Taygetos
0.02645825 Greek_Messenia
0.02657164 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02678687 Gagauz
0.02679371 Italian_Bergamo
0.02709394 Greek_Achaea
0.02735833 Bulgarian
0.02820482 Greek_Arcadia
0.02837038 Greek_Argolis
0.02883489 Greek_Elis
0.02906470 Italian_Liguria
0.02920881 Greek_Corinthia
0.02976399 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03033824 Italian_Lombardy
0.03045931 Macedonian

[xz1333]

Maybe I only need to run Albanian and not other overlapping populations in order to get 100% ?

I tried yours

Distance to: xz1333
0.02504403 ALB_Çinamak_Anc
0.08207297 Croatia_Imperial
0.08613507 TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)

Target: xz1333
Distance: 1.6071% / 0.01607110 | ADC: 0.25x RC
60.2 ALB_Çinamak_Anc
20.6 TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)
19.2 Croatia_Imperial


I tried running Albanian instead of Cinamak

Target: xz1333
Distance: 1.6091% / 0.01609066 | ADC: 0.5x RC
90.4 Albanian
9.6 TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)


And yes it's pretty obvious Albanian's aren't 100% identical . This does not mean there is imperial admixture or other % it gives you or that the admixture it supposedly gives you is actual real ancestry. Especially when I see people add overlapping populations into these calculators