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Thread: Genetic Origin of Albanians

  1. #981
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzotika View Post
    Yes correct . In 1877 as much as I know. Before, oral tradition says we moved from Shkodra region there due to gjakmarrje but so far I do not see any genetic proof for that. We claim to be Gash I Gurit, there is actually another one not too far away from Podujeva with same haplo as me and also Gashi affiliation. But that is way too less to work with and it is really driving me crazy meanwhile
    One of my relatives also claimed we are Gash I Gurit, tested J2b2-L283 but I don't know how true it is. It is possible people joined these tribes.

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  3. #982
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzotika View Post
    Yeah the joining of tribes and the not necessarily homogenous DNA is a fact. But that Gash I Gurit has a J-L283 core is for sure I think, that is evident by both Albanian DNA projects .
    Yeah it is possible we are Gash I Gurit, they revolted against Ottomans in 1690 together with other tribes , and they were Catholic until very late which we also were

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  5. #983
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    I14688 (600-400 BCE), a male sample from IA Çinamak was uploaded on FTDNA. The initial classification in the "Southern Arc" papers is that he's under R-L51.

    On FTDNA, this sample was re-classified and uploaded under R-PF7563.



    R-PF7563>Z29758 is one the major and most diverse Albanian lineages.

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  7. #984
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    aDNA Match (1st)
    0.03028386 HUN_La_Tene:I18493
    aDNA Match (2nd)
    0.03179387 SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12105
    aDNA Match (3rd)
    0.03353149 GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-FT19186
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    H2a1c

    Albania United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    I14688 (600-400 BCE), a male sample from IA Çinamak was uploaded on FTDNA. The initial classification in the "Southern Arc" papers is that he's under R-L51.

    On FTDNA, this sample was re-classified and uploaded under R-PF7563.



    R-PF7563>Z29758 is one the major and most diverse Albanian lineages.
    This is fantastic news. For starters, it is further resolving the long-standing and widely misunderstood issue of an allegedly recent arrival of an Albanian-speaking population. Because this lineage has now been classified as such, I infer there was an ancestral Albanian population in this place for a far longer period of time, but there will still be many doubters unfortunately. This is a significant step forward into the deeper question.
    Last edited by excine; 09-25-2022 at 01:59 AM.
    “To Maltsia e madhe I first turned my steps–not to see the mountains, but to see life, history, the world, and the great unknown, as it looks to the mountain man.”
    - Edith Durham

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  9. #985
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    I14688 (600-400 BCE), a male sample from IA Çinamak was uploaded on FTDNA. The initial classification in the "Southern Arc" papers is that he's under R-L51.

    On FTDNA, this sample was re-classified and uploaded under R-PF7563.

    R-PF7563>Z29758 is one the major and most diverse Albanian lineages.
    Nice catch! I personally never looked into this sample, as I thought he is some low coverage R-L51 as reported by the Southern Arc paper. I just looked at his BAM file and I would have to agree with FTDNA that I14688 is in fact R1b-PF7562>PF7563!

    At R-PF7562 level, he has GG490/BY856/Y19696+ (3T), then at R-PF7563 level he is showing PF7563+ (1A), with no contradicting or negative reads.

    It seems Lazaridis et al. classified him as R-L51 based on SNPs L51 which has two derived and one ancestral/negative read, and E207/Y410/MF659561 which has one derived and one ancestral read. So, unlike the R-PF7562>PF7563 calls, the R-L51 calls are clearly ambiguous.

    I think this is a nice development with regards to Albanian Y-DNA. Just in LBA-IA Çinamak site in NE Albania, we have J2b-L283, R1b-CTS9219 aka R1b-CTS1450, and now R1b-PF7563, which together compose ~35-40% of modern Albanian Y-DNA.
    Last edited by Trojet; 09-25-2022 at 02:29 AM.

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  11. #986
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Nice catch! I personally never looked into this sample, as I thought he is some low coverage R-L51 as reported by the Southern Arc paper. I just looked at his BAM file and I would have to agree with FTDNA that I14688 is in fact R1b-PF7562>PF7563!

    At R-PF7562 level, he has GG490/BY856/Y19696+ (3T), then at R-PF7563 level he is showing PF7563+ (1A), with no contradicting or negative reads.

    It seems Lazaridis et al. classified him as R-L51 based on SNPs L51 which has two derived and one ancestral/negative read, and E207/Y410/MF659561 which has one derived and one ancestral read. So, unlike the R-PF7562>PF7563 calls, the R-L51 calls are clearly ambiguous.

    I think this is a nice development with regards to Albanian Y-DNA. Just in LBA-IA Çinamak site in NE Albania, we have J2b-L283, R1b-CTS9219 aka R1b-CTS1450, and now R1b-PF7563, which together compose ~35-40% of modern Albanian Y-DNA.
    Great analysis! It seems that FTDNA has uploaded many samples with a more thorough classification.

  12. #987
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    Western Hunter Gatherer
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    Albanian/Arber
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    I2a-M423

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    I14688 (600-400 BCE), a male sample from IA Çinamak was uploaded on FTDNA. The initial classification in the "Southern Arc" papers is that he's under R-L51.

    On FTDNA, this sample was re-classified and uploaded under R-PF7563.



    R-PF7563>Z29758 is one the major and most diverse Albanian lineages.
    Huge news, the proto albanians emerge!

  13. #988
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    Quote Originally Posted by excine View Post
    Check again:

    Target: Croatia_Zadar_Relja:R3742_AD177Coverage_46.74%
    Distance: 2.9749% / 0.02974887
    42.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    17.6 GEO_CHG
    17.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    11.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    10.8 Israel_Natufian
    0.2 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP

    Target: Croatia_Trogir_Policija:R3670_AD168Coverage_35.99%
    Distance: 3.7319% / 0.03731855
    55.0 TUR_Barcin_N
    19.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    8.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    8.6 Israel_Natufian
    8.2 GEO_CHG
    0.4 BRA_LapaDoSanto_9600BP

    Target: Croatia_Trogir_Dragulin:R3665_AD171Coverage_38.20%
    Distance: 3.0680% / 0.03068013
    61.0 TUR_Barcin_N
    14.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    13.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    6.2 GEO_CHG
    4.6 Israel_Natufian
    0.4 Han

    Target: TUR_Marmara_Ilipinar_Byz3
    Distance: 5.7416% / 0.05741599
    43.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    39.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    17.8 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG

    Target: TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Camandras_Dalagöz_Rom
    Distance: 3.1266% / 0.03126624
    59.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    17.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    12.0 GEO_CHG
    7.2 Israel_Natufian
    4.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

    Target: ALB_PostMdv
    Distance: 2.2301% / 0.02230064
    62.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    33.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    2.0 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
    1.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.2 GEO_CHG

    Target: ALB_Mdv
    Distance: 2.2292% / 0.02229232
    63.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    31.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    2.0 GEO_CHG
    2.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.4 SRB_Iron_Gates_HG

    At most, a part of the Anatolians were as ANF as pre-medieval Albanians, but many weren't. Combined with a Slavic shift it means that if Albanians had significant ancestries from both, they would have much lower ANF today.

    By the way, your own PCA showed a very low Slavic ancestry for Albanians in case you didn't notice it.
    I never said those influences were very high in Albanians. I was just responding to Bruzmi who used certain models and PCAs to prove that modern Albanians are 100% identical to Cinamak.

    Code:
    Croatia_Imperial,0.1066143,0.1411583,-0.0294153,-0.054587,0.0001023,-0.0188717,-0.006267,-0.0050767,-0.0111803,0.0144573,0.005088,0.005545,-0.0006937,-0.0052297,-0.0113553,0.0031823,0.0180363,-0.0019003,0.0023463,-0.0042937,-0.0059477,-0.0001237,-0.0042313,0.0013253,-0.0030737
    ALB_Çinamak_Anc,0.123904,0.153200,0.028823,-0.012459,0.029148,-0.005379,0.001175,0.000396,-0.000292,0.024107,0.002598,0.006573,-0.018307,-0.007648,-0.009190,-0.002462,0.010989,0.001412,0.004741,-0.008665,-0.005633,0.001767,-0.003363,0.006593,-0.005474
    TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav),0.130897,0.133034,0.065242,0.037791,0.043085,0.008646,0.008225,0.019615,-0.005931,-0.016401,0.000650,-0.007343,0.008771,0.019955,-0.008143,0.003447,0.009257,-0.004434,-0.004651,-0.002626,-0.007736,-0.005193,0.011216,-0.007712,-0.007664


    this is the mathematically feasible amount of those influences in Albanians. It means all proportions fit, ANF included.
    Last edited by bce; 09-25-2022 at 11:14 AM.

  14. #989
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    I never said those influences were very high in Albanians. I was just responding to Bruzmi who used certain models and PCAs to prove that modern Albanians are 100% identical to Cinamak.

    Code:
    Croatia_Imperial,0.1066143,0.1411583,-0.0294153,-0.054587,0.0001023,-0.0188717,-0.006267,-0.0050767,-0.0111803,0.0144573,0.005088,0.005545,-0.0006937,-0.0052297,-0.0113553,0.0031823,0.0180363,-0.0019003,0.0023463,-0.0042937,-0.0059477,-0.0001237,-0.0042313,0.0013253,-0.0030737
    ALB_Çinamak_Anc,0.123904,0.153200,0.028823,-0.012459,0.029148,-0.005379,0.001175,0.000396,-0.000292,0.024107,0.002598,0.006573,-0.018307,-0.007648,-0.009190,-0.002462,0.010989,0.001412,0.004741,-0.008665,-0.005633,0.001767,-0.003363,0.006593,-0.005474
    TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav),0.130897,0.133034,0.065242,0.037791,0.043085,0.008646,0.008225,0.019615,-0.005931,-0.016401,0.000650,-0.007343,0.008771,0.019955,-0.008143,0.003447,0.009257,-0.004434,-0.004651,-0.002626,-0.007736,-0.005193,0.011216,-0.007712,-0.007664


    this is the mathematically feasible amount of those influences in Albanians. It means all proportions fit, ANF included.

    And how can these calculators be taken serious ? By your logic this calculator should model me as 100% Albanian but it doesn't

    Let's see here:

    Target: xz1333
    Distance: 0.6358% / 0.00635773
    30.6 Montenegrin
    19.0 Greek_Messenia
    13.2 Sardinian
    8.4 Macedonian
    6.4 Albanian
    5.6 French_Seine-Maritime
    5.4 Italian_Lazio
    3.6 Georgian_Ajar
    2.6 Georgian_NorthEast
    2.2 Swiss_French
    1.8 Basque_Soule
    0.8 Georgian_Javakheti
    0.4 Italian_Bergamo



    I am only 6.4 Albanian according to this calc, let's reduce the population and change the settings:

    Target: xz1333
    Distance: 0.8220% / 0.00821959 | R3P
    52.4 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    45.0 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    2.6 Georgian_Ajar

    Nope still not 100% Albanian despite Albanian is first

    Distance to: xz1333
    0.01841633 Albanian
    0.01902928 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.02078061 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02085061 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02122682 Swiss_Italian
    0.02141297 Greek_Macedonia
    0.02162191 Italian_Veneto
    0.02389471 Rumelia_East
    0.02488209 Italian_Northeast
    0.02507809 Italian_Tuscany
    0.02600311 Greek_West_Taygetos
    0.02645825 Greek_Messenia
    0.02657164 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.02678687 Gagauz
    0.02679371 Italian_Bergamo
    0.02709394 Greek_Achaea
    0.02735833 Bulgarian
    0.02820482 Greek_Arcadia
    0.02837038 Greek_Argolis
    0.02883489 Greek_Elis
    0.02906470 Italian_Liguria
    0.02920881 Greek_Corinthia
    0.02976399 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03033824 Italian_Lombardy
    0.03045931 Macedonian

  15. #990
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    Maybe I only need to run Albanian and not other overlapping populations in order to get 100% ?

    I tried yours

    Distance to: xz1333
    0.02504403 ALB_Çinamak_Anc
    0.08207297 Croatia_Imperial
    0.08613507 TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)

    Target: xz1333
    Distance: 1.6071% / 0.01607110 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    60.2 ALB_Çinamak_Anc
    20.6 TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)
    19.2 Croatia_Imperial


    I tried running Albanian instead of Cinamak

    Target: xz1333
    Distance: 1.6091% / 0.01609066 | ADC: 0.5x RC
    90.4 Albanian
    9.6 TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)


    And yes it's pretty obvious Albanian's aren't 100% identical . This does not mean there is imperial admixture or other % it gives you or that the admixture it supposedly gives you is actual real ancestry. Especially when I see people add overlapping populations into these calculators
    Last edited by xz1333; 09-25-2022 at 11:29 AM.

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