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Thread: Genetic Origin of Albanians

  1. #991
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    Quote Originally Posted by xz1333 View Post
    And how can these calculators be taken serious ? By your logic this calculator should model me as 100% Albanian but it doesn't

    Let's see here:

    Target: xz1333
    Distance: 0.6358% / 0.00635773
    30.6 Montenegrin
    19.0 Greek_Messenia
    13.2 Sardinian
    8.4 Macedonian
    6.4 Albanian
    5.6 French_Seine-Maritime
    5.4 Italian_Lazio
    3.6 Georgian_Ajar
    2.6 Georgian_NorthEast
    2.2 Swiss_French
    1.8 Basque_Soule
    0.8 Georgian_Javakheti
    0.4 Italian_Bergamo



    I am only 6.4 Albanian according to this calc, let's reduce the population and change the settings:

    Target: xz1333
    Distance: 0.8220% / 0.00821959 | R3P
    52.4 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    45.0 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    2.6 Georgian_Ajar

    Nope still not 100% Albanian despite Albanian is first

    Distance to: xz1333
    0.01841633 Albanian
    0.01902928 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.02078061 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02085061 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02122682 Swiss_Italian
    0.02141297 Greek_Macedonia
    0.02162191 Italian_Veneto
    0.02389471 Rumelia_East
    0.02488209 Italian_Northeast
    0.02507809 Italian_Tuscany
    0.02600311 Greek_West_Taygetos
    0.02645825 Greek_Messenia
    0.02657164 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.02678687 Gagauz
    0.02679371 Italian_Bergamo
    0.02709394 Greek_Achaea
    0.02735833 Bulgarian
    0.02820482 Greek_Arcadia
    0.02837038 Greek_Argolis
    0.02883489 Greek_Elis
    0.02906470 Italian_Liguria
    0.02920881 Greek_Corinthia
    0.02976399 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03033824 Italian_Lombardy
    0.03045931 Macedonian
    those are all mathematically correct models.

    for example:

    Target: xz1333
    Distance: 0.8220% / 0.00821959 | R3P
    52.4 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    45.0 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    2.6 Georgian_Ajar

    Target Distance ALB_Çinamak_Anc Croatia_Imperial TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)
    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 0.02279690 84.2 0.0 15.8
    Greek_Central_Macedonia 0.01605523 34.6 38.4 27.0
    Average 0.01942606 59.4 19.2 21.4

    Greek_Central_Macedonia are similar to Albanians, but with increased Slavic and Imperial admixtures. Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige are very similar to IA Balkans, with a bit of Slavic.
    When you average those 2, you get results very similar to the average Albanian ones, as you can see in the table.

    all modern and ancient Europeans are made of similar components. that's why you should use a specific selection of source samples, and not the full sheet.

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  3. #992
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    those are all mathematically correct models.

    for example:

    Target: xz1333
    Distance: 0.8220% / 0.00821959 | R3P
    52.4 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    45.0 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    2.6 Georgian_Ajar

    Target Distance ALB_Çinamak_Anc Croatia_Imperial TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)
    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 0.02279690 84.2 0.0 15.8
    Greek_Central_Macedonia 0.01605523 34.6 38.4 27.0
    Average 0.01942606 59.4 19.2 21.4

    Greek_Central_Macedonia are similar to Albanians, but with increased Slavic and Imperial admixtures. Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige are very similar to IA Balkans, with a bit of Slavic.
    When you average those 2, you get results very similar to the average Albanian ones, as you can see in the table.

    all modern and ancient Europeans are made of similar components. that's why you should use a specific selection of source samples, and not the full sheet.
    That is what I am saying. One cannot add similar overlapping populations into these calculators, or similar ancestry, and claim you have admixture from that population which is what I see many people do just because it models you that way. One guy was adding all these overlapping populations and claimed Albanians are only 9% Illyrian and he was using Illyrians from Croatia. It's not that these calculators are wrong in the way they model you, it's the fact people take the results as literally, and they can model you in many ways depending on the samples you use. Doesn't mean it's your actual ancestry. I get Greek and North Italian because they both somewhat share similarity to Albanian a combo of those in a certain % models an Albanian like me and puts me on the PCA Map where I am. Greek Macedonia having that large imperial admixture (or Albanians) would be nothing but an assumption btw.

    Your own calc gave me 60% Cinamak, higher than your average ''Albanian'' btw. When I ran it myself with other sources I was 67% identical to these cinamaks.
    Last edited by xz1333; 09-25-2022 at 04:10 PM.

  4. #993
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    I'm not saying this is what you have done but I see people add Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks, Romans, Imperials, Slavs all into one calculator, And think it can tell you where all your ancestors came from. One person was adding Thracians from Bulgaria when we don't even know if they had impact on Albanians. At least your mindset is more right and your explanation is right (I'd be also interested to create averages out of these Illyrians and samples in Macedonia but I am still not convinced by imperial admixture unless they were assimilated during barbarian incursions)

    Btw one of those calculators modelled me as 100% Illyrian weirdly unless I am not understanding the results Croatia Bronze Age + Montenegro Bronze Age or something once I changed the settings.

    Let's not forget one Ancient Sample in Macedonia clusters just west next to me and Cetina Bronze Age just south.

    Also these medieval Albanians getting less imperial admix is weird considering one would think these people would of been assimilated earlier, how can the admixture increase later unless I am not understanding it . Medieval Albanians cluster on average more west but so do some few post medieval Albanian samples I have seen .
    Last edited by xz1333; 09-25-2022 at 02:32 PM.

  5. #994
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    Quote Originally Posted by xz1333 View Post
    I'm not saying this is what you have done but I see people add Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks, Romans, Imperials, Slavs all into one calculator, And think it can tell you where all your ancestors came from. One person was adding Thracians from Bulgaria when we don't even know if they had impact on Albanians. At least your mindset is more right and your explanation is right (I'd be also interested to create averages out of these Illyrians and samples in Macedonia but I am still not convinced by imperial admixture unless they were assimilated during barbarian incursions)

    Btw one of those calculators modelled me as 100% Illyrian weirdly unless I am not understanding the results Croatia Bronze Age + Montenegro Bronze Age or something once I changed the settings.

    Let's not forget one Ancient Sample in Macedonia clusters just west next to me and Cetina Bronze Age just south.

    Also these medieval Albanians getting less imperial admix is weird considering one would think these people would of been assimilated earlier, how can the admixture increase later unless I am not understanding it . Medieval Albanians cluster on average more west but so do some few post medieval Albanian samples I have seen .
    As far as broad autosomal estimates are concerned, it can still be hard to tell IA Balkan populations apart when they're all used together (and a while ago I managed to get working models in qpAdm with a variety of those on their own for all modern Balkan groups, from HRV to Mycenaean, with the addition of Near Eastern and early Slavic related sources so it might be a bit tricky to tell apart with these methods). I created a G25 ghost a while ago that actually ended up similar to the Albania_IA population which reasonably provides a starting point for Albanians, though I'm sure all Balkan groups have a little bit of everything Balkan in them in different amounts since at least Roman times, that Kelmendasi used to provide some reasonable, regional estimates. They weren't too far off from the kind of broad model that bce used here, reducing the estimated Imperial + early Slavic by a bit though can't get hung up on specific proportions at this still early point.

    The imperial-like/Near Eastern admixture might have entered specific populations in the Balkans in various ways over time but I think it's certainly there. The early Slavic admixture we can also tell is there but estimates are also still up in the air. A broad model of IA Balkans + Near Eastern like + early Slavic like works well in general for the Balkan cline (and excess non/pre-Slavic generally correlates well between groups with geography, southeast to northwest, and with linguistic grouping - Slavic vs non-Slavic - so Albanians are a bit of an exception with less early Slavic related than you'd expect from their overall location) but the specifics will take a while to be better resolved.

    Also it's better to consider populations as a whole, rather than individuals. Some ancient and modern individuals will be closer to each other but the group averages also tell us something important about the general process that might be less easy to tell with individual, noisier or less representative comparisons.
    Last edited by DFSTFD; 09-25-2022 at 03:16 PM.

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  7. #995
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFSTFD View Post
    As far as broad autosomal estimates are concerned, it can still be hard to tell IA Balkan populations apart when they're all used together (and a while ago I managed to get working models in qpAdm with a variety of those on their own for all modern Balkan groups, from HRV to Mycenaean, with the addition of Near Eastern and early Slavic related sources so it might be a bit tricky to tell apart with these methods). I created a G25 ghost a while ago that actually ended up similar to the Albania_IA population which reasonably provides a starting point for Albanians, though I'm sure all Balkan groups have a little bit of everything Balkan in them in different amounts since at least Roman times, that Kelmendasi used to provide some reasonable, regional estimates. They weren't too far off from the kind of broad model that bce used here, reducing the estimated Imperial + early Slavic by a bit though can't get hung up on specific proportions at this still early point.

    The imperial-related admixture might have entered specific populations in the Balkans in various ways over time but I think it's certainly there. The early Slavic admixture we can also tell is there but estimates are also still up in the air. A broad model of IA Balkans + Near Eastern like + early Slavic like works well in general for the Balkan cline (and excess non/pre-Slavic generally correlates well between groups with geography, northwest to southeast, and with linguistic grouping - Slavic vs non-Slavic - so Albanians are a bit of an exception with less early Slavic related than you'd expect from their overall location) but the specifics will take a while to be better resolved.

    Also it's better to consider populations as a whole, rather than individuals. Some ancient and modern individuals will be closer to each other but the group averages also tell us something important about the general process that might be less easy to tell with individual, noisier or less representative comparisons.
    That is a fair argument. But these calcs do not take into consideration Ancient Greek admixture into Albanian for example, especially in Southern and Central Albania (or Vlach) which would of entered the Illyrians or certain specific groups which then entered others. Of course Imperial admixture or other admixture could of entered some of the Vlachs, Slavs etc which then entered some Albanians through assimilations, many Slavs possibly were already mixed when mingling with Albanians or intermarriages. But lets also take into consideration this:

    The Albanians are also one of Europe's populations with the highest number of common ancestors within their own ethnic group even though they share ancestors with other ethnic groups.[3]
    We also need to remember bottle neck effects which can also occur. Albanian dialect split Gheg-Tosk roughly occurred before Slavic migrations. I am still not convinced by 30% Roman Imperial admixture for Albanian I think Ancient Greek ancestry needs to be taken into consideration too and other admixture. Illyrians weren't neccessarily some kind of genetically unchanging entity since the Iron Age.

    I am still satisfied with my results though, it says on most calculators I am like 60%-70% identical to some of these samples found in Montenegro, Albania and Macedonia. On Eurogenes K36 btw some of these Illyrians had an 70%-80% similarity with Albania I believe.
    Last edited by xz1333; 09-25-2022 at 03:29 PM.

  8. #996
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    Quote Originally Posted by xz1333 View Post
    That is a fair argument. But these calcs do not take into consideration Ancient Greek admixture into Albanian for example, especially in Southern and Central Albania (or Vlach) which would of entered the Illyrians. Of course Imperial admixture could of entered some of the Vlachs which then entered some Albanians through assimilations. But lets also take into consideration this:



    We also need to remember bottle neck effects which can also occur. Albanian dialect split Gheg-Tosk roughly occurred before Slavic migrations.

    I am still satisfied with my results though, it says on most calculators I am like 60%-70% identical to these samples found in Montenegro, Albania and Macedonia. On Eurogenes K36 btw some of these Illyrians had an 70%-80% similarity with Albania I believe btw.
    Distance does tell us something important here too, it's not complete coincidence that the IA cline is generally more similar to Albanians and Greeks than Slavic-speaking groups on average but at the same time, modern northern and central Italians show even lower distances to it. But we know that those groups also moved from their ancient more WHG-rich position (certain for central Italy, plausible and almost certain for northern Italy based on what samples from the surrounding regions look like until we get IA samples from northern Italy) towards the 'southeast' and so became much more similar to the Balkan IA cline, partially due to plausibly having related admixture from there but also due to having admixture from elsewhere (e.g. the obvious Near Eastern related in central Italy) that brought them closer to the ancient Balkans. So on its own it can be a bit misleading but it's worth keeping in mind too since it's often not a complete coincidence and I think this is such a case.

    As for additional Aegean/Mycenaean-like rather than strictly Anatolian or Levantine (though to an extent you can't fully separate those regions anyway, the two sides of the Aegean were in constant admixture and communication until recently and we even see some Levant-related in a recent Minoan sample, it's not like the CHG or even other components stopped coming in the Bronze Age), I think you have a point there based on what I've seen with various models in G25 and qpAdm but will be nice to see those samples from Viminacium that seem to form a long cline between the northern/western and southern/eastern Balkans and even show some central Anatolian looking outliers. They might help us pinpoint some things in the Balkans. Overall though yes, it's clear that Albanians have very substantial Balkan IA-related ancestry, plausibly the biggest part of it being Illyrian-related, with the other 'non-IA Balkan' admixtures constituting a still important but smaller amount of their ancestry.

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  10. #997
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    R-PF7563>Z29758 is one the major and most diverse Albanian lineages.
    Indeed, in my eyes it is unfeasible that this lineage was absorbed by the expanding Proto-Albanians from a local Romanised Illyrian population during the Common Era. An expansion of the Proto-Albanians from the eastern Balkans currently has essentially no archaeogenetic support, on the other hand, evidence for a presence in the western-central Balkans is simply mounting.

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  12. #998
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    Quote Originally Posted by bce View Post
    I never said those influences were very high in Albanians. I was just responding to Bruzmi who used certain models and PCAs to prove that modern Albanians are 100% identical to Cinamak.

    Code:
    Croatia_Imperial,0.1066143,0.1411583,-0.0294153,-0.054587,0.0001023,-0.0188717,-0.006267,-0.0050767,-0.0111803,0.0144573,0.005088,0.005545,-0.0006937,-0.0052297,-0.0113553,0.0031823,0.0180363,-0.0019003,0.0023463,-0.0042937,-0.0059477,-0.0001237,-0.0042313,0.0013253,-0.0030737
    ALB_Çinamak_Anc,0.123904,0.153200,0.028823,-0.012459,0.029148,-0.005379,0.001175,0.000396,-0.000292,0.024107,0.002598,0.006573,-0.018307,-0.007648,-0.009190,-0.002462,0.010989,0.001412,0.004741,-0.008665,-0.005633,0.001767,-0.003363,0.006593,-0.005474
    TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav),0.130897,0.133034,0.065242,0.037791,0.043085,0.008646,0.008225,0.019615,-0.005931,-0.016401,0.000650,-0.007343,0.008771,0.019955,-0.008143,0.003447,0.009257,-0.004434,-0.004651,-0.002626,-0.007736,-0.005193,0.011216,-0.007712,-0.007664


    this is the mathematically feasible amount of those influences in Albanians. It means all proportions fit, ANF included.
    Target: technocrat
    Distance: 2.9265% / 0.02926543
    66.8 ALB_Çinamak_Anc
    24.4 Croatia_Imperial
    8.8 TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)

    Target: Technicrat_dad_scaled
    Distance: 2.7797% / 0.02779733
    53.2 ALB_Çinamak_Anc
    32.2 Croatia_Imperial
    14.6 TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)

    Target: Technocrat_mom_scaled
    Distance: 1.8872% / 0.01887162
    56.0 ALB_Çinamak_Anc
    26.8 Croatia_Imperial
    17.2 TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)

    Target: Friend_scaled
    Distance: 3.5600% / 0.03559967
    40.6 Croatia_Imperial
    35.6 ALB_Çinamak_Anc
    23.8 TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)

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  14. #999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzotika View Post
    There is Curraj, a place in Northeast Albania. However the link is way to vague I d say. Moreover „goose“ in Albanian is written as Qura. Maybe there was a transition from Ç to Q, can’t judge that as I am not a linguist…. I am not sure at all but I think the ç/q (pronounciation: tsh) came pretty late into Albanian language .
    Indeed, Çura is an early slavic loan into Albanian, meaning goose/large bird. There is a village in on the border between Montenegro and Albania spelled as Ćura.

    I am fairly confident now that Çura Alpohor was initially an Arvanite village. By 1550, it was Greek-speaking, and most of the names and surnames of its inhabitants were Greek. Its modern inhabitants have a fair share of Albanian matches on 23andme (35-70) - Arvanites get a much higher number of Albanian matches, as far as I am aware.

    So its probably a village originally inhabited by Arvanites, but then assimilated many Greeks. My family is the only one with R-PF7562.
    distance: 0.01753688
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.2
    Early Slavic: 24.6
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 14.8
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 9.6
    MAR_Taforalt: 1
    CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 1.2
    Yoruba: 0.6

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  16. #1000
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    All villages named Alpohor were found within Arvanite settlements. I don't know what the alp- means. I am wondering if it has to do with lipa (lemon tree, itself a Slavic loan).
    distance: 0.01753688
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.2
    Early Slavic: 24.6
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 14.8
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 9.6
    MAR_Taforalt: 1
    CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 1.2
    Yoruba: 0.6

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