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Thread: Genetic Origin of Albanians

  1. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD View Post
    All villages named Alpohor were found within Arvanite settlements. I don't know what the alp- means. I am wondering if it has to do with lipa (lemon tree, itself a Slavic loan).
    I missed the previous discussion about this so I'm not sure if it has been brought up but isn't Alpo(c)hor = Alepochori, i.e. with northern Greek dialectal treatment? The toponym itself seems Greek even if the settlement history of each of the villages named such is more complicated. That kind of double Albanian-Greek name (is the Albanian one even possibly named after its founder? common practice) in this case seems to point towards that sort of thing, some kind of settlement merger or gradual population intermixing? I guess the devil is in the details in this case. If it's a toponym brought to various regions from further north and combined with other founding elements down the line it might even simplify things, this seems to happen with other toponyms like Harvati (in that case the original etymological element spread by Albanian speakers in parts of Greece being linguistically Slavic or at least initially adopted by Slavic speakers). It's plausible that Albanian speakers might have spread a single Greek toponym in this case to various regions than somehow adopting it separately in each area.

    Are there any plausible Albanian etymologies for the Alpohor element?
    Last edited by DFSTFD; 09-25-2022 at 04:45 PM.

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  3. #1002
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    Albania Kosovo
    Distance: 2.8604% / 0.02860439
    67.6 ALB_ăinamak_Anc
    18.2 Croatia_Imperial
    14.2 TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)

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  5. #1003
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    When I ran all those Cinamaks together this is what I got

    Target: xz1333
    Distance: 1.3774% / 0.01377437 | ADC: 0.5x RC
    67.4 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
    18.0 TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)
    14.6 Croatia_Imperial


    Is it just one sample this guy has used or did he create an average ?
    Last edited by xz1333; 09-25-2022 at 05:11 PM.

  6. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD View Post
    Indeed, ăura is an early slavic loan into Albanian, meaning goose/large bird. There is a village in on the border between Montenegro and Albania spelled as Ćura.

    I am fairly confident now that ăura Alpohor was initially an Arvanite village. By 1550, it was Greek-speaking, and most of the names and surnames of its inhabitants were Greek. Its modern inhabitants have a fair share of Albanian matches on 23andme (35-70) - Arvanites get a much higher number of Albanian matches, as far as I am aware.

    So its probably a village originally inhabited by Arvanites, but then assimilated many Greeks. My family is the only one with R-PF7562.
    Would you be able to post the names of the villagers?

  7. #1005
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    Albania Kosovo
    I was under the impression that the toponym is a compound of αλεπού (fox) + χωριό (village). It seems as if there was an Albanian tribal community or katun which took its name from a locality with this place name and consequently aided in spreading it. In 1466 Alpohor is also noted as a katun (type of semi-permanent settlement only attributed to Albanians and Vlachs in this context) in the region of Lidoriki.

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  9. #1006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    I was under the impression that the toponym is a compound of αλεπού (fox) + χωριό (village). It seems as if there was an Albanian tribal community or katun which took its name from a locality with this place name and consequently aided in spreading it. In 1466 Alpohor is also noted as a katun (type of semi-permanent settlement only attributed to Albanians and Vlachs in this context) in the region of Lidoriki.
    Without knowing the specifics, that was my impression too based on what XXD mentioned. It reminded me of the well-known case of Harvati which has been sometimes considered as a "Slavic toponym" in Greece due to its etymology (though I guess in a deep sense it's still uncertain whether the Harvat/Croat names are etymologically Slavic or only adopted by Slavic speakers from another, steppe-related source, but that part doesn't matter too much) but seems to have been spread around by Albanian speakers. In this case, it kinda looks like a Greek toponym that Albanians adopted in some locality (Epirus?) and then spread around further south with their migrations.

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  11. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Distance: 2.8604% / 0.02860439
    67.6 ALB_ăinamak_Anc
    18.2 Croatia_Imperial
    14.2 TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)
    To me it seems many Albanians are quite identical to these samples 60%-70% . If we remove roman imperial and add only Slavic, my results

    Target: xz1333
    Distance: 1.6255% / 0.01625522
    84.0 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
    16.0 TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)

    without Slavic but only Imperial

    Target: xz1333
    Distance: 1.8877% / 0.01887671
    91.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
    8.8 Croatia_Imperial

  12. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFSTFD View Post
    Distance does tell us something important here too, it's not complete coincidence that the IA cline is generally more similar to Albanians and Greeks than Slavic-speaking groups on average but at the same time, modern northern and central Italians show even lower distances to it. But we know that those groups also moved from their ancient more WHG-rich position (certain for central Italy, plausible and almost certain for northern Italy based on what samples from the surrounding regions look like until we get IA samples from northern Italy) towards the 'southeast' and so became much more similar to the Balkan IA cline, partially due to plausibly having related admixture from there but also due to having admixture from elsewhere (e.g. the obvious Near Eastern related in central Italy) that brought them closer to the ancient Balkans. So on its own it can be a bit misleading but it's worth keeping in mind too since it's often not a complete coincidence and I think this is such a case.

    As for additional Aegean/Mycenaean-like rather than strictly Anatolian or Levantine (though to an extent you can't fully separate those regions anyway, the two sides of the Aegean were in constant admixture and communication until recently and we even see some Levant-related in a recent Minoan sample, it's not like the CHG or even other components stopped coming in the Bronze Age), I think you have a point there based on what I've seen with various models in G25 and qpAdm but will be nice to see those samples from Viminacium that seem to form a long cline between the northern/western and southern/eastern Balkans and even show some central Anatolian looking outliers. They might help us pinpoint some things in the Balkans. Overall though yes, it's clear that Albanians have very substantial Balkan IA-related ancestry, plausibly the biggest part of it being Illyrian-related, with the other 'non-IA Balkan' admixtures constituting a still important but smaller amount of their ancestry.
    My whole point was that people add unneccessary samples into these calculators which one might not even have ancestry from and which basically scews peoples results, as I showed above. Notice also how my slavic and imperial changed without doing much on some of those others. Just some minor imperial ancestry could of shifted modern Albanians more east while still being quite identical to many of these Illyrians. Or some minor Slavic. We don't know how much genetic impact Slavs had on Albanians or even Imperial admixture or even Thracians or Greeks. Also look at the distances for some of my results, the distances are not huge.

    Have a good night

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  14. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by xz1333 View Post
    My whole point was that people add unneccessary samples into these calculators which one might not even have ancestry from and which basically scews peoples results, as I showed above. Notice also how my slavic and imperial changed without doing much on some of those others. Just some minor imperial ancestry could of shifted modern Albanians more east while still being quite identical to many of these Illyrians. Or some minor Slavic. We don't know how much genetic impact Slavs had on Albanians or even Imperial admixture or even Thracians or Greeks. Also look at the distances for some of my results, the distances are not huge.

    Have a good night
    I agree with that, adding multiple broadly similar sources can potentially confuse the results a bit, that's why I'm more certain about that broad kind of 3-way model being generally appropriate and sound for the Balkans than some of the specifics within it, like very specific percentages or even what specific IA populations to use and which ones to exclude with certainty. Though likely all of them had some part to play in most cases, even if some of them much smaller and some of them much bigger depending on the different modern Balkan populations. These specifics need much more ancient results to sort out.

    In your results for example you got a big reduction in distance when you used all 3 broad elements (though your 3-way model is with ADC:0.5 so not an equal comparison with the other two but I assume it improves the distance even more if you don't add that and leave it at 0) rather than combinations of 2. Then the use of at least those three broad elements makes some sense, since these broad results also come up if you model using very basic components or look at the kinds of population movements we see towards the Balkans with ancient samples (and knew about even before that), from the east and the northeast.

  15. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by xz1333 View Post
    To me it seems many Albanians are quite identical to these samples 60%-70% . If we remove roman imperial and add only Slavic, my results

    Target: xz1333
    Distance: 1.6255% / 0.01625522
    84.0 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
    16.0 TUR_Marmara_Ilıpınar_Byz3(Slav)

    without Slavic but only Imperial

    Target: xz1333
    Distance: 1.8877% / 0.01887671
    91.2 ALB_Cinamak_Anc
    8.8 Croatia_Imperial
    are those k36 simulated coordinates? they usually get 1-2% lower distances compared to real ones.

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