Genetic Origin of Albanians

[Kelmendasi]

Maybe if we use a time machine and go to this Bessi place in 550 CE we would have found another non-Romanized/Hellenized(Thracian this time) which was less lucky and didn't survive the migration era.

The issue is that in later periods following the Roman conquest, Bessi essentially became (at least partly) an umbrella term for related Thracian tribes or Thracian-speakers as a whole. It seems to have lost much of its ethnic or tribal meaning, if there ever was any since the ancient sources do not really speak of a "true" Bessi tribe or people.

[Granary]

The issue is that in later periods following the Roman conquest, Bessi essentially became (at least partly) an umbrella term for related Thracian tribes or Thracian-speakers as a whole. It seems to have lost much of its ethnic or tribal meaning, if there ever was any since the ancient sources do not really speak of a "true" Bessi tribe or people.

If Bessi wasn't a true tribe then what was it, a coalition? Some sort of shared pan-regional name?

[Granary]

But for that dialect to not undergo that sound shift would preclude it from being part of the Albanoid linguistic group from which proto-Albanian descends, since some changes had to have happened very early on, like the /sk/ cluster, etc.

Yeah ok, but that doesn't preclude the Dardanians from being proto-Albanian, or does it? Or even the Enchele and Penestae

[Kelmendasi]

If Bessi wasn't a true tribe then what was it, a coalition? Some sort of shared pan-regional name?

It is a contested issue. Herodotus claims that they were a sub-tribe of the Satrae and describes them more specifically as a kind of priestly caste tied to the cult of Dionysus - the sanctuary of Dionysus itself was very important to the identity of the Bessi. Some then argue that, in face of Roman opposition, the name became applicable to related tribes of the south-eastern Balkans and, even later, all Thracian-speakers.

[xz1333]

I guess I'm the only one who thinks Albanians lived more or less in the same or similar areas prior to Slavic expansion. This idea that Albanians just magically popped up doesnt seem convincing. Also IBD sharing doesnt necessarily show where all your ancestors came from, largely related to Slavic incursions and migration period, I remember many Albanians I wasnt related to

[Bruzmi]

I'm pretty sure that most scholars that worked on the Jirecek line would say this region is in the Greek speaking part

Yep, pretty much:



The Bessi area was either fully Greek-speaking in terms of a lingua franca or at least Greek/Latin bilingual at its most western point. It's impossible for Albanian, a language which famously has very few loanwords from ancient Greek to have had its core area in such a region.

Even in Saldzhiev's work which this person posted, if he bothered to read the author carefully, he would read that:

The phonetic characteristis of the name of the mountain village founded near the mountain pass and the road which connected the mediaeval Sredets (Sofia) and Philippopolis/Plovdiv give reasons to think that in the 10th and 11th century some mountain regions between both towns were inhabited by (Proto) Albanian population which had migrated eastward from their native lands in the Central and Western Balkans.

If this migration occurred, it already involves medieval Albanians from the current Albanian lands not Albanians who were local in this area.

[Bruzmi]

I guess I'm the only one who thinks Albanians lived more or less in the same or similar areas prior to Slavic expansion

Most recent authors are far closer to this opinion than to anything else about ... Bessi theories and the such. The "Southern Arc" papers brought everyone much closer to this conclusion than before. Some people on online fora still haven't realized it and are wasting our time with debunked theories.

[Granary]

The chronology of the change from s to sh obviously requires that proto-Albanians were in that region before the slavs, so that they mediate it to them like the Astibos -> Shtip, therefore it is impossible that proto-Albanians moved there from the west balkans in the 10th century after slavs were already well established there.

As for the supposed Greek influence, you must be joking if you are arguing that there was some sort of serious hellenistic linguistic influence in the isolated mountain zones of this border area in the early era of the roman empire in the balkans

But Latin influence must have gotten there but all the surrounding populated regions were Greek?

[Bruzmi]

The chronology of the change from s to sh obviously requires that proto-Albanians were in that region before the slavs, so that they mediate it to them like the Astibos -> Shtip, therefore it is impossible that proto-Albanians moved there from the west balkans in the 10th century after slavs were already well established there.

Who says that it's impossible? The author certainly doesn't and Albanians or anyone else certainly could move wherever they wanted to in the Bulgarian Empire.

As for the supposed Greek influence, you must be joking if you are arguing that there was some sort of serious hellenistic linguistic influence in the isolated mountain zones of this border area in the early era of the roman empire in the balkans

At this point, I'm certain that you should do a lot of reading about this area which isn't composed of "isolated mountain zones". Even Astibos which you mentioned was a big city with lots of evidence for Greek as its lingua france and even the name Astibos is most likely ancient Greek (astibos = sacred enclosure)

[Administrator]

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