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Thread: Genetic Origin of Albanians

  1. #481
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    E-V13>Z5017>BY4465
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    J2b-L283>BY201552

    Albania
    Distance to: ALB_NChL_I13838; ca. 5000-3500 BCE; Tren Cave, Korēė; G-P303
    5.38871515 Lebanon_Maronite
    5.67982993 Lebanon_Orthodox_Christian
    6.40439350 IQ_Chaldean
    6.42366152 Cyprus_Greek
    6.42837398 Iraqi_Jew
    6.45723300 Hatay_Nusayri
    6.48964768 IQ_Kirkuk
    6.54751529 Samaritan
    6.56989276 Mountain_Jew
    6.57114168 Lebanon_Sunni

    This is also interesting IMO. Corresponds with the high % of haplogroup G.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatis View Post
    Distance to: ALB_cinamak_Anc_1d.rel.I16256_I17633; ca. 700-400 BCE; Ēinamak, Kukės; J2b-Z593
    2.17016013 Albanian_Kosovo
    2.17512344 IT_Ladinia
    2.18195216 Albanians_Montenegro
    2.18261172 IT_Veneto
    2.20123659 IT_Trentino
    2.20877324 IT_Piedmont
    2.24590834 Moldova_sud
    2.24797207 Albanian_north
    2.26309665 IT_Friuli
    2.28406401 Tirol
    When we get their G25, we'll be able to run these samples in comparison to Albanian regional averages.

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  4. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatis View Post
    Distance to: ALB_NChL_I13838; ca. 5000-3500 BCE; Tren Cave, Korēė; G-P303
    5.38871515 Lebanon_Maronite
    5.67982993 Lebanon_Orthodox_Christian
    6.40439350 IQ_Chaldean
    6.42366152 Cyprus_Greek
    6.42837398 Iraqi_Jew
    6.45723300 Hatay_Nusayri
    6.48964768 IQ_Kirkuk
    6.54751529 Samaritan
    6.56989276 Mountain_Jew
    6.57114168 Lebanon_Sunni

    This is also interesting IMO. Corresponds with the high % of haplogroup G.
    This is the basic Balkan Neolithic profile. The important thing about these two samples is that we can locate CHG in Albania at least since the Neolithic era:

    Two Neolithic-to-Chalcolithic samples from Tren Cave at the southern border of lake Prespa (one of which, I13840 is dated to 4245-4051 calBCE) show a trace amount of CHG ancestry (5±2% in total and 7±3% in I13840) on top of the Anatolian Neolithic background, similar to samples from the Aegean that we will discuss in our section on Greece.

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  6. #484
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    While not disagreeing with Riverman as I'm not into creating theories but simply considering possibilities, I agree with Bruzmi on the point that E-V13 didn't necessarily bring the Thracian language.

    Even if it sounds extreme, I still don't see J2b-L283 as Illyrian in the linguistic sense but rather geographic and autosomal. I agree on calling it an Illyric rather than Illyrian haplogroup as of now and genetics will unfortunately never be able to prove what language those people brought or originally spoke.

    The invaders often adopted the language of their subjects and I hold the same extreme caution even for the Dorians and their original language before migrating Southward (if they did so).

  7. #485
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    Interesting bit is also that Albanians share a close distance to Cetina samples.
    Furthermore the Trogir samples being Greek/Albanian autosomaly speaking is also interesting.
    I am more and more convinced that Rome and the Byzantine empire are what brought Albanians and Greeks so close autosomaly, after diverging post IE dispersals.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    ― Franz Kafka

  8. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatis View Post
    While not disagreeing with Riverman as I'm not into creating theories but simply considering possibilities, I agree with Bruzmi on the point that E-V13 didn't necessarily bring the Thracian language.
    The Thracian language didn't just exist in Thrace proper, but the Thracian language group (Daco-Thracian) existed in other areas as well. And as will be seen, all can be linked to:
    - Gįva/Channelled Ware primarily (LBA-EIA)
    - Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo-Babadag secondarily (EIA, also involved: Late Gįva, Thraco-Cimmerian horizon/Mezocsat and Eastern cremating Vekerzug and Ferigile, among others).

    Cetina being Proto-Illyrians in the wider sense (ancestors to Pannonians-Illyrians) being now largely confirmed, in my opinion. Whether Illyrian can be derived from an Italo-Celtic Centum language group is up to the linguists.

  9. #487
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    Albanian
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V13>Z5017>BY4465
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    J2b-L283>BY201552

    Albania
    Distance to: HRV_IA_I5729; -970, HRV_IA, Sv Petar Ludbreski, G-L497
    1.14694556 Sudtirol
    1.20797994 IT_Veneto
    1.27571188 Tirol
    1.31586521 IT_Aosta
    1.31632427 Macedonia_Skopje
    1.33955158 IT_Friuli
    1.36430314 Albanians_Montenegro
    1.36575546 IT_Trentino
    1.37923251 Macedonia_SW
    1.38602427 Moldova_sud

    Distance to: HRV_Cetina_BA_I19019
    1.94214482 Moldova_sud
    2.02158621 Serb_Lika_CRO
    2.04430745 Croatia_Dalmatian_isl.
    2.04910612 Romanian_SW
    2.05273513 Montenegrin
    2.05482643 Bosniak_west
    2.07861041 IT_Veneto
    2.08536011 Serbia_Belgrade
    2.09239675 Serb_Banija&Kordun_CRO
    2.09451481 Macedonia_Skopje

    I always suspected the North-Eastern pull was way more ancient than Slavs since I saw the Logkas04 sample.

  10. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatis View Post
    So, apparently the samples from Barc in Korca are gypsies.
    Indeed, the samples from ca. 1704 CE Barē have quite clearly Roma autosomal profiles.

    There are quite a few medieval and early modern samples with profiles rather typical (or not too atypical) of modern Albanians, for example: I15707 (ca. 1551 CE), I14687 (ca. 1550 CE), and I14686 (ca. 1550 CE) from Bardhoc; I14622 (ca. 829 CE) from Kėnetė; I13839 (ca. 936 CE) from Shtikė; and I13834 (ca. 1419 CE) from Barē. However, a smaller number seem to have more Slavic-admixed profiles: I15706 (ca. 1630 CE) from Pazhok; and I14685 (ca. 1550 CE) from Bardhoc. Seems to me that in the former case we are dealing with ethnically Albanian samples, while the latter could potentially be Slavs or Albanians with extra Slavic ancestry. Sample I14622 is rather significant in this case as it essentially confirms the presence of Albanian-speakers in the north-east since the ninth century CE at the very least.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 08-26-2022 at 01:18 AM.

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  12. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The Thracian language didn't just exist in Thrace proper, but the Thracian language group (Daco-Thracian) existed in other areas as well. And as will be seen, all can be linked to:
    - Gįva/Channelled Ware primarily (LBA-EIA)
    - Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo-Babadag secondarily (EIA, also involved: Late Gįva, Thraco-Cimmerian horizon/Mezocsat and Eastern cremating Vekerzug and Ferigile, among others).

    Cetina being Proto-Illyrians in the wider sense (ancestors to Pannonians-Illyrians) being now largely confirmed, in my opinion. Whether Illyrian can be derived from an Italo-Celtic Centum language group is up to the linguists.
    If Proto-Illyrian is related to the Italo-Celtic languages then Albanian and Illyrian are entirely unrelated, since Albanian is the least related to Italic and Celtic and more related to Greek, Germanic, and Balto-Slavic.

    But how will we ever prove what Illyrian was like when it supposedly covered such a large territory and we have 0 actual evidence. Illyrian cities and personal names recorded by the Greeks and Romans certainly don't help much.

    Also, they could for instance have recorded Liburnian words which again could have been unrelated to the language of the Taulanti. So who're the Illyrians, really? Those close to the Veneti or those close to the Greeks?

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  14. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Indeed, the samples from ca. 1704 CE Barē have quite clearly Roma autosomal profiles.

    There are quite a few medieval and early modern samples with profiles rather typical (or not too atypical) of modern Albanians, for example: I15707 (ca. 1551 CE), I14687 (ca. 1550 CE), and I14686 (ca. 1550 CE) from Bardhoc; I14622 (ca. 829 CE) from Kėnetė; I13839 (ca. 936 CE) from Shtikė; and I13834 (ca. 1419 CE) from Barē. However, a smaller number seem to have more Slavic-admixed profiles: I15706 (ca. 1630 CE) from Pazhok; and I14685 (ca. 1550 CE) from Bardhoc. Seems to me that in the former case we are dealing with ethnically Albanian samples, while the latter could potentially be Slavs or Albanians with extra Slavic ancestry.
    Indeed, I noticed the same. The Pazhok sample was also R1a so there's that. Kukes still has a considerable Muslim Bulgarian minority, just like Dibra, Korca, and Elbasan.

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