Tribes of Sarmatia Europea & eastern Germania Magna their suggested linguistic stocks

[Tomenable]

Map of tribes (note that locations of tribes along the edges of Sarmatia Europea are more certain, while these deep inland are less certain):

List of tribes from the map:

1. Acibi
2. Agathyrsi
3. Alauni
4. Amadoci
5. Amaxobii
6. Anartophracti
7. Aorsi
8. Arsietae
9. Vandili Avarini
10. Bastarnae
11. Biessi
12. Bodini/Budinoi
13. Borusci/Borouskoi
14. Vandili Burgiones
15. Carbones/Carvones
16. Careotae
17. Cariones/Caroni
18. Carpiani
19. Chuni/Khounoi
20. Coestoboci
21. Exobygitae
22. Finni/Phinnoi
23. Galindae
24. Gelones
25. Gevini
26. Guthones/Gythones
27. Hippopodes
28. Iazyges
29. Idrae
30. Igylliones
31. Melanchlaeni
32. Nasci
33. Neuri/Navari
34. Ombrones
35. Ophlones
36. Osili
37. Ossi
38. Pagyritae
39. Peucini
40. Vandili Phrungundiones/Frugundiones
41. Piengitae
42. Rheucanali
43. Rhoxolani
44. Saboci
45. Sali
46. Sargati
47. Savari
48. Alani Scythae
49. Stavani/Stavanoi
50. Sturni
51. Sudini
52. Boulanes/Soulones/Boutones
53. Alani Tanaitae
54. Transmontani
55. Tauroscythae
56. Tigri/Tagru
57. Toreccadae
58. Tyrangitae
59. Veltae
60. Venedae/Vistula Veneti
61. Vibiones
62. Aestii/Aestiorum Gentes
63. Buri
64. Cotini/Kotini/Gotini
65. Scythae Aroteres
66. Scythae Borystheneitae
67. Tauri
A. Lugii/Lugiones
B. Lugi Diduni
C. Lugi Omani
D. Manimi
E. Helisii (name related to Kalisia)
F. Helvecones
G. Harii
H. Zumoi
I. Mugilones
J. Vandili Silingi
K. Nahanarvali
L. Vandili Burgundi/Burgodiones
M. Elvaiones
N. Sidini
O. Ulmerugii
P. Rugii/Rugiclei
Q. Lemovii
R. Hirii
S. Sciri
T. Gepidae
U. Semnones
V. Vandili Varinnae/Varini/Charini
W. Farodini



^^^
Tribes and their suggested linguistic stocks:

1. Acibi - Balto-Slavic-related
2. Agathyrsi - Daco-Thracian-related with Iranic influence
3. Alauni - Iranic-related (Alans)
4. Amadoci - Balto-Slavic-related
5. Amaxobii - Iranic-related
6. Anartophracti - Celtic-related (literally: "fraction of Anartes")
7. Aorsi - Iranic-related
8. Arsietae - Daco-Thracian-related
9. Vandili Avarini - Vandalic Germanic-related
10. Bastarnae - East Germanic-related (in confederation with Peucini)
11. Biessi - Daco-Thracian-related
12. Bodini/Budinoi - Finno-Permic-related (ancestors of Meshchera etc.)
13. Borusci/Borouskoi - Balto-Slavic-related
14. Vandili Burgiones - Vandalic Germanic-related
15. Carbones/Carvones - Finno-Permic-related (in Estonia)
16. Careotae - Balto-Slavic-related (Curonians)
17. Cariones/Caroni - Iranic-related
18. Carpiani - Daco-Thracian-related
19. Chuni/Khounoi - Iranic-related (or Hunnic?)
20. Coestoboci - Daco-Thracian-related
21. Exobygitae - Iranic-related
22. Finni/Phinnoi - Finno-Permic-related
23. Galindae - Balto-Slavic-related (Galindians)
24. Gelones - Balto-Slavic-related with Greek influence (lived near Bilsk - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...ilsk_Hill_Fort)
25. Gevini - Balto-Slavic-related
26. Guthones/Gythones - Gothic Germanic-related
27. Hippopodes - Finno-Permic-related
28. Iazyges - Iranic-related
29. Idrae - Balto-Slavic-related
30. Igylliones - Daco-Thracian-related
31. Melanchlaeni - Finno-Permic-related
32. Nasci - Balto-Slavic-related
33. Neuri/Navari - Balto-Slavic-related (to the north-west of Scythians)
34. Ombrones - Celtic-related
35. Ophlones - Iranic-related
36. Osili - Iranic-related
37. Ossi - Finno-Permic-related (in Livonia)
38. Pagyritae - Balto-Slavic-related
39. Peucini - Celtic-related (in confederation with Bastarnae)
40. Vandili Phrungundiones/Frugundiones - Vandalic Germanic-related
41. Piengitae - Daco-Thracian-related
42. Rheucanali - Iranic-related
43. Rhoxolani - Iranic-related
44. Saboci - Daco-Thracian-related
45. Sali - Balto-Slavic-related (Selonians)
46. Sargati - Iranic-related
47. Savari - Balto-Slavic-related (Severians - I placed them in Severia)
48. Alani Scythae - Iranic-related (Scythians / Sarmatians)
49. Stavani/Stavanoi - Balto-Slavic-related
50. Sturni - Iranic-related
51. Sudini - Balto-Slavic-related (Sudovians)
52. Boulanes/Soulones/Boutones - Balto-Slavic-related (Polans / Goplans)
53. Alani Tanaitae - Iranic-related (Alans near Tanais)
54. Transmontani - Celtic-related (most probably)
55. Tauroscythae - Iranic-related
56. Tigri/Tagru - Iranic-related with Daco-Thracian influence
57. Toreccadae - Iranic-related
58. Tyrangitae - Daco-Thracian-related (Getae at the Dniester)
59. Veltae - Balto-Slavic-related
60. Venedae/Vistula Veneti - Balto-Slavic-related
61. Vibiones - Balto-Slavic-related
62. Aestii/Aestiorum Gentes - Balto-Slavic-related
63. Buri - Daco-Thracian-related (related to another Buri in Dacia "Proper")
64. Cotini/Kotini/Gotini - Celtic-related
65. Scythae Aroteres - Balto-Slavic-related with Iranic influence (Scythian Ploughmen)
66. Scythae Borystheneitae - Balto-Slavic-related with Iranic influence (Scythian Farmers)
67. Tauri - probably language isolate
A. Lugii/Lugiones - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
B. Lugi Diduni - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
C. Lugi Omani - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
D. Manimi - probably East Germanic-related
E. Helisii (name related to Kalisia) - Balto-Slavic-related
F. Helvecones - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
G. Harii - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
H. Zumoi - possibly Balto-Slavic-related
I. Mugilones - Celtic-related
J. Vandili Silingi - Vandalic Germanic-related
K. Nahanarvali - Celtic-related with Germanic influence
L. Vandili Burgundi/Burgodiones - Vandalic Germanic-related
M. Elvaiones - East Germanic-related
N. Sidini - East Germanic-related
O. Ulmerugii - East Germanic-related (name means: "Insular Rugii")
P. Rugii/Rugiclei - East Germanic-related
Q. Lemovii - East Germanic-related
R. Hirii - East Germanic-related
S. Sciri - East Germanic-related
T. Gepidae - East Germanic-related
U. Semnones - Irminonic Germanic-related
V. Vandili Varinnae/Varini/Charini - Vandalic Germanic-related
W. Farodini - Irminonic Germanic-related

Second map with tribes coloured based on their presumed linguistic stock:

Blue = Daco-Thracian-related
Green = Germanic-related
Purple = Celtic-related
Yellow = Iranic-related
Red = Balto-Slavic-related
Black = Finno-Permic-related

Red line = border of European Sarmatia and border of Germania Magna



There can be mentioned also Suovenoi who are usually placed in Sarmatia Asiatica to the east of the Volga.

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EDIT:

If someone disagrees with my locations of tribes - then you can post your own idea:

Here is a blank map with just Sarmatia Europea and Germania Magna borders (red):

[rothaer]

Interesting maps, thanks.

Why do you assume E and H to be Balto-Slavic related?
Why do you assume 52 to be so far west?

Is there ancient DNA supporting any of these three assumptions? I'd expect a Balto-Slavic relation to stick out well genetically.

[Tomenable]

Interesting maps, thanks.

Why do you assume E and H to be Balto-Slavic related?
Why do you assume 52 to be so far west?

The name Helisii (E) comes from Kalisii/Kalisia, and Kalisia (= modern Kalisz) has Slavic etymology according to this intelligent discussion:

https://slawomirambroziak-pl.transla...en&_x_tr_hl=pl - a debate about Kalisia between supporter vs. sceptic of Kalisia=Kalisz theory

Zumoi (H) have no Germanic or Celtic etymology and it seems like a Balto-Slavic etymology is possible - but I said "possibly" in this case.

Boulanes (52) were mentioned between Guthones (26) and Frugundians (40), so clearly it must have been somewhere in Central Poland?

IIs there ancient DNA supporting any of these three assumptions? I'd expect a Balto-Slavic relation to stick out well genetically.

I don't think so, not yet.

But perhaps we have ancient DNA for 51 (Turlojiske samples) and for 65-66 (samples scy009, MJ14, MJ13). Ofc. also for Scythians proper.

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EDIT:

I'm adding a map of available aDNA samples dated to 1000 BC - 650 AD (three colours for 1000-1 BC, 1-300 AD, 300-650 AD):

This map is incomplete (some of the available samples are missing from it) but most samples are includded, so it gives an idea:

[vettor]

All number 60 belong to the Veleti ( a slavic tribe ) which went eventually to mecklenburg area and where eventually kicked out of the area in the wendish crusade
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleti

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendish_Crusade


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the bottom number 62 are the Baltic Venedi ...a finnic group
in the original document, this grammar is basically achieved directly from the Venetic inscriptions. The methodology of deciphering involved a great deal of attention to the context as determined by archeology, in which the sentences must resonate with the context; and also context within the sentence once partially deciphered. Thus the methodology did not project any known language onto the Venetic. However, once it was clear Venetic was Finnic, we began to take notice of parallels in Estonian and Finnish and discovered some major grammatical endings were close to the same.

[Tomenable]

BTW were the Manimi a Vandalic tribe?

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For the Bastarnae we have one ancient DNA sample - scy303 (Swedish-like outlier among Moldova "so called Scythians"):

Distance to: Scythian_MDA_o:scy303
0.03472981 Swedish
0.03578435 Norwegian
0.03623313 Danish
0.03973275 German_Hamburg
0.04014302 Icelandic
0.04123312 Dutch
(...)

[vettor]

The Vandals where a confederation of 16 tribes....it was not one tribe

The goths ( Gottones ) resided on both sides of the Vistula river ( lower) next to the baltic sea ..................they eventually split into Ostrogoths ( east goths ) and Visigoths ( west goths )....some say the split occurred due to the vistula delta being so big , they formed separate identities ............with the Ostrogoths living in Sarmatian lands

[Tomenable]

I know, but I'm not sure if the Manimi were also part of the Vandal confederation (most likely yes).

The goths ( Gottones ) resided on both sides of the Vistula river

They migrated south along the Vistula River but it was later.

At the beginning they resided in eastern Pomerania-Pomerelia-Pomesania-Kulmerland (on both sides of the Vistula) area:

As my older map shows - https://i.imgur.com/86sT5R1.png - tribes 11, 41, 44, 8 and 18 are missing from this older map:

 

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I'm not sure if I listed all tribes from the western Pontic Steppe in my map, maybe I forgot about some and that's why this region looks a bit empty.

[Tomenable]

BTW - Piengitae (41) most likely gave their name to the Pieniny - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieniny (and that's where I placed them)

Biessi (11) were to the west of Piengitae. And their eastern neighbours were Saboci (44), more to the east were Arsietae (8) & Carpiani (18).

All of these five were tribes living in/along the Western Carpathians.

[rothaer]

The name Helisii (E) comes from Kalisii/Kalisia, and Kalisia (= modern Kalisz) has Slavic etymology according to this intelligent discussion:

https://slawomirambroziak-pl.transla...en&_x_tr_hl=pl - a debate about Kalisia between supporter vs. sceptic of Kalisia=Kalisz theory

Kalisz-like names appear at a number of places in "Polish lands", but as Polish lands mostly are outside of the generally assumed Slavic urheimat I would at a first glance regard something that just appears there non-Slavic in it's etymology. However, I see no Slavic etymology for that name. Also no Germanic and Celtic I don't know, but a number of old names from that area are considered to be derived from an IE langauge that was between Germanic and Balto-Slavic and that left water names like Oder/Odra, Warthe/Warta, Netze/Notec and Vistula (the German Weichsel is a later form).
What make things even more complicated is that the various IE language families are interrelated anyhow. You have Slavic chelm for a hill and this is related to holm in German and guess what's the etymology for English hill itself.

However, from today's Kalisz area is known that Celtic coins were minted. And if you say that Helsii are derived from Calisia then that tribe name even show the Germanic vowel shift, when k developed to h (like Catualda --> Hadwald, Clodwig --> Hlodwig, Ludwig etc.). This means that you for today's Kalisz area see the well known and common to bordering Silesia order of cultures/ethnicities: First Celtic and later Germanic. So there is no indication that the Germanic vowel shifted Helsii should be Balto-Slav related.

Zumoi (H) have no Germanic or Celtic etymology and it seems like a Balto-Slavic etymology is possible - but I said "possibly" in this case.

Not sure how to rule that out. Also, a Dacian or Illyrian derived etymology would be possible.

Boulanes (52) were mentioned between Guthones (26) and Frugundians (40), so clearly it must have been somewhere in Central Poland?

I see. You seem to identify them with the Polish ethnonym. But while a number of Slavic tribal names in what later became Poles showed up, Polanie were not amongst them and according to what I read that tribal name first showed up in the context with Mieszko's father or even one generation earlier, when that somewhat elevated area that later became the heart land of Poland/Wielkopolska (Poznan-Gniezno-Kruszewice?) was first settled (more densely). So Polanie seems to be a name for a tribe that was first composed in the 9th or 10th century.

What's your take on that Polanie name?

[Tomenable]

According to Pliny the Elder Vandals consisted of: Burgundi/Burgodiones, Varinnae/Varini, Gutones and Charini (these are not known from any other souce).

So he classified Goths as a sub-group of Vandals (Vandili). But at least in later history Goths became distinct enough to not be considered Vandals. Avarini were a branch of Varini - so also Vandals. Phrungundiones/Frugundiones and Burgiones were two branches of the Burgundi, who migrated to new areas - so also Vandalic tribes.

From later sources we know, that also the Silingi were counted among the Vandals (Vandili).

Hasdingi was a much later name, it started to exist only after they migrated near the Roman border. It was a ruling dynasty which gave name to its subjects.