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Thread: Tribes of Sarmatia Europea & eastern Germania Magna their suggested linguistic stocks

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    Tribes of Sarmatia Europea & eastern Germania Magna their suggested linguistic stocks

    Map of tribes (note that locations of tribes along the edges of Sarmatia Europea are more certain, while these deep inland are less certain):

    List of tribes from the map:

    1. Acibi
    2. Agathyrsi
    3. Alauni
    4. Amadoci
    5. Amaxobii
    6. Anartophracti
    7. Aorsi
    8. Arsietae
    9. Vandili Avarini
    10. Bastarnae
    11. Biessi
    12. Bodini/Budinoi
    13. Borusci/Borouskoi
    14. Vandili Burgiones
    15. Carbones/Carvones
    16. Careotae
    17. Cariones/Caroni
    18. Carpiani
    19. Chuni/Khounoi
    20. Coestoboci
    21. Exobygitae
    22. Finni/Phinnoi
    23. Galindae
    24. Gelones
    25. Gevini
    26. Guthones/Gythones
    27. Hippopodes
    28. Iazyges
    29. Idrae
    30. Igylliones
    31. Melanchlaeni
    32. Nasci
    33. Neuri/Navari
    34. Ombrones
    35. Ophlones
    36. Osili
    37. Ossi
    38. Pagyritae
    39. Peucini
    40. Vandili Phrungundiones/Frugundiones
    41. Piengitae
    42. Rheucanali
    43. Rhoxolani
    44. Saboci
    45. Sali
    46. Sargati
    47. Savari
    48. Alani Scythae
    49. Stavani/Stavanoi
    50. Sturni
    51. Sudini
    52. Boulanes/Soulones/Boutones
    53. Alani Tanaitae
    54. Transmontani
    55. Tauroscythae
    56. Tigri/Tagru
    57. Toreccadae
    58. Tyrangitae
    59. Veltae
    60. Venedae/Vistula Veneti
    61. Vibiones
    62. Aestii/Aestiorum Gentes
    63. Buri
    64. Cotini/Kotini/Gotini
    65. Scythae Aroteres
    66. Scythae Borystheneitae
    67. Tauri
    A. Lugii/Lugiones
    B. Lugi Diduni
    C. Lugi Omani
    D. Manimi
    E. Helisii (name related to Kalisia)
    F. Helvecones
    G. Harii
    H. Zumoi
    I. Mugilones
    J. Vandili Silingi
    K. Nahanarvali
    L. Vandili Burgundi/Burgodiones
    M. Elvaiones
    N. Sidini
    O. Ulmerugii
    P. Rugii/Rugiclei
    Q. Lemovii
    R. Hirii
    S. Sciri
    T. Gepidae
    U. Semnones
    V. Vandili Varinnae/Varini/Charini
    W. Farodini



    ^^^
    Tribes and their suggested linguistic stocks:

    1. Acibi - Balto-Slavic-related
    2. Agathyrsi - Daco-Thracian-related with Iranic influence
    3. Alauni - Iranic-related (Alans)
    4. Amadoci - Balto-Slavic-related
    5. Amaxobii - Iranic-related
    6. Anartophracti - Celtic-related (literally: "fraction of Anartes")
    7. Aorsi - Iranic-related
    8. Arsietae - Daco-Thracian-related
    9. Vandili Avarini - Vandalic Germanic-related
    10. Bastarnae - East Germanic-related (in confederation with Peucini)
    11. Biessi - Daco-Thracian-related
    12. Bodini/Budinoi - Finno-Permic-related (ancestors of Meshchera etc.)
    13. Borusci/Borouskoi - Balto-Slavic-related
    14. Vandili Burgiones - Vandalic Germanic-related
    15. Carbones/Carvones - Finno-Permic-related (in Estonia)
    16. Careotae - Balto-Slavic-related (Curonians)
    17. Cariones/Caroni - Iranic-related
    18. Carpiani - Daco-Thracian-related
    19. Chuni/Khounoi - Iranic-related (or Hunnic?)
    20. Coestoboci - Daco-Thracian-related
    21. Exobygitae - Iranic-related
    22. Finni/Phinnoi - Finno-Permic-related
    23. Galindae - Balto-Slavic-related (Galindians)
    24. Gelones - Balto-Slavic-related with Greek influence (lived near Bilsk - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...ilsk_Hill_Fort)
    25. Gevini - Balto-Slavic-related
    26. Guthones/Gythones - Gothic Germanic-related
    27. Hippopodes - Finno-Permic-related
    28. Iazyges - Iranic-related
    29. Idrae - Balto-Slavic-related
    30. Igylliones - Daco-Thracian-related
    31. Melanchlaeni - Finno-Permic-related
    32. Nasci - Balto-Slavic-related
    33. Neuri/Navari - Balto-Slavic-related (to the north-west of Scythians)
    34. Ombrones - Celtic-related
    35. Ophlones - Iranic-related
    36. Osili - Iranic-related
    37. Ossi - Finno-Permic-related (in Livonia)
    38. Pagyritae - Balto-Slavic-related
    39. Peucini - Celtic-related (in confederation with Bastarnae)
    40. Vandili Phrungundiones/Frugundiones - Vandalic Germanic-related
    41. Piengitae - Daco-Thracian-related
    42. Rheucanali - Iranic-related
    43. Rhoxolani - Iranic-related
    44. Saboci - Daco-Thracian-related
    45. Sali - Balto-Slavic-related (Selonians)
    46. Sargati - Iranic-related
    47. Savari - Balto-Slavic-related (Severians - I placed them in Severia)
    48. Alani Scythae - Iranic-related (Scythians / Sarmatians)
    49. Stavani/Stavanoi - Balto-Slavic-related
    50. Sturni - Iranic-related
    51. Sudini - Balto-Slavic-related (Sudovians)
    52. Boulanes/Soulones/Boutones - Balto-Slavic-related (Polans / Goplans)
    53. Alani Tanaitae - Iranic-related (Alans near Tanais)
    54. Transmontani - Celtic-related (most probably)
    55. Tauroscythae - Iranic-related
    56. Tigri/Tagru - Iranic-related with Daco-Thracian influence
    57. Toreccadae - Iranic-related
    58. Tyrangitae - Daco-Thracian-related (Getae at the Dniester)
    59. Veltae - Balto-Slavic-related
    60. Venedae/Vistula Veneti - Balto-Slavic-related
    61. Vibiones - Balto-Slavic-related
    62. Aestii/Aestiorum Gentes - Balto-Slavic-related
    63. Buri - Daco-Thracian-related (related to another Buri in Dacia "Proper")
    64. Cotini/Kotini/Gotini - Celtic-related
    65. Scythae Aroteres - Balto-Slavic-related with Iranic influence (Scythian Ploughmen)
    66. Scythae Borystheneitae - Balto-Slavic-related with Iranic influence (Scythian Farmers)
    67. Tauri - probably language isolate
    A. Lugii/Lugiones - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
    B. Lugi Diduni - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
    C. Lugi Omani - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
    D. Manimi - probably East Germanic-related
    E. Helisii (name related to Kalisia) - Balto-Slavic-related
    F. Helvecones - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
    G. Harii - Celtic-related (Celtic ethnonym + Celtic archeology area)
    H. Zumoi - possibly Balto-Slavic-related
    I. Mugilones - Celtic-related
    J. Vandili Silingi - Vandalic Germanic-related
    K. Nahanarvali - Celtic-related with Germanic influence
    L. Vandili Burgundi/Burgodiones - Vandalic Germanic-related
    M. Elvaiones - East Germanic-related
    N. Sidini - East Germanic-related
    O. Ulmerugii - East Germanic-related (name means: "Insular Rugii")
    P. Rugii/Rugiclei - East Germanic-related
    Q. Lemovii - East Germanic-related
    R. Hirii - East Germanic-related
    S. Sciri - East Germanic-related
    T. Gepidae - East Germanic-related
    U. Semnones - Irminonic Germanic-related
    V. Vandili Varinnae/Varini/Charini - Vandalic Germanic-related
    W. Farodini - Irminonic Germanic-related

    Second map with tribes coloured based on their presumed linguistic stock:

    Blue = Daco-Thracian-related
    Green = Germanic-related
    Purple = Celtic-related
    Yellow = Iranic-related
    Red = Balto-Slavic-related
    Black = Finno-Permic-related

    Red line = border of European Sarmatia and border of Germania Magna



    There can be mentioned also Suovenoi who are usually placed in Sarmatia Asiatica to the east of the Volga.

    =====
    =====
    =====

    EDIT:

    If someone disagrees with my locations of tribes - then you can post your own idea:

    Here is a blank map with just Sarmatia Europea and Germania Magna borders (red):

    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-02-2022 at 02:05 AM. Reason: blank map added

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    Interesting maps, thanks.

    Why do you assume E and H to be Balto-Slavic related?
    Why do you assume 52 to be so far west?

    Is there ancient DNA supporting any of these three assumptions? I'd expect a Balto-Slavic relation to stick out well genetically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    Interesting maps, thanks.

    Why do you assume E and H to be Balto-Slavic related?
    Why do you assume 52 to be so far west?
    The name Helisii (E) comes from Kalisii/Kalisia, and Kalisia (= modern Kalisz) has Slavic etymology according to this intelligent discussion:

    https://slawomirambroziak-pl.transla...en&_x_tr_hl=pl - a debate about Kalisia between supporter vs. sceptic of Kalisia=Kalisz theory

    Zumoi (H) have no Germanic or Celtic etymology and it seems like a Balto-Slavic etymology is possible - but I said "possibly" in this case.

    Boulanes (52) were mentioned between Guthones (26) and Frugundians (40), so clearly it must have been somewhere in Central Poland?

    Quote Originally Posted by rothaer View Post
    IIs there ancient DNA supporting any of these three assumptions? I'd expect a Balto-Slavic relation to stick out well genetically.
    I don't think so, not yet.

    But perhaps we have ancient DNA for 51 (Turlojiske samples) and for 65-66 (samples scy009, MJ14, MJ13). Ofc. also for Scythians proper.

    =====

    EDIT:

    I'm adding a map of available aDNA samples dated to 1000 BC - 650 AD (three colours for 1000-1 BC, 1-300 AD, 300-650 AD):

    This map is incomplete (some of the available samples are missing from it) but most samples are includded, so it gives an idea:

    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-02-2022 at 04:41 PM.

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    All number 60 belong to the Veleti ( a slavic tribe ) which went eventually to mecklenburg area and where eventually kicked out of the area in the wendish crusade
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleti

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendish_Crusade


    .................................................. .........


    the bottom number 62 are the Baltic Venedi ...a finnic group
    in the original document, this grammar is basically achieved directly from the Venetic inscriptions. The methodology of deciphering involved a great deal of attention to the context as determined by archeology, in which the sentences must resonate with the context; and also context within the sentence once partially deciphered. Thus the methodology did not project any known language onto the Venetic. However, once it was clear Venetic was Finnic, we began to take notice of parallels in Estonian and Finnish and discovered some major grammatical endings were close to the same.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

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    BTW were the Manimi a Vandalic tribe?

    =====

    For the Bastarnae we have one ancient DNA sample - scy303 (Swedish-like outlier among Moldova "so called Scythians"):

    Distance to: Scythian_MDA_o:scy303
    0.03472981 Swedish
    0.03578435 Norwegian
    0.03623313 Danish
    0.03973275 German_Hamburg
    0.04014302 Icelandic
    0.04123312 Dutch
    (...)
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-02-2022 at 04:41 PM.

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    The Vandals where a confederation of 16 tribes....it was not one tribe

    The goths ( Gottones ) resided on both sides of the Vistula river ( lower) next to the baltic sea ..................they eventually split into Ostrogoths ( east goths ) and Visigoths ( west goths )....some say the split occurred due to the vistula delta being so big , they formed separate identities ............with the Ostrogoths living in Sarmatian lands


    My Path = ( K-M9+, LT-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 yDna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtDna
    Son's mtDna = K1a4p

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    I know, but I'm not sure if the Manimi were also part of the Vandal confederation (most likely yes).

    The goths ( Gottones ) resided on both sides of the Vistula river
    They migrated south along the Vistula River but it was later.

    At the beginning they resided in eastern Pomerania-Pomerelia-Pomesania-Kulmerland (on both sides of the Vistula) area:

    As my older map shows - https://i.imgur.com/86sT5R1.png - tribes 11, 41, 44, 8 and 18 are missing from this older map:

     


    =====

    I'm not sure if I listed all tribes from the western Pontic Steppe in my map, maybe I forgot about some and that's why this region looks a bit empty.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-01-2022 at 10:24 PM.

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    BTW - Piengitae (41) most likely gave their name to the Pieniny - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieniny (and that's where I placed them)

    Biessi (11) were to the west of Piengitae. And their eastern neighbours were Saboci (44), more to the east were Arsietae (8) & Carpiani (18).

    All of these five were tribes living in/along the Western Carpathians.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-01-2022 at 10:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    The name Helisii (E) comes from Kalisii/Kalisia, and Kalisia (= modern Kalisz) has Slavic etymology according to this intelligent discussion:

    https://slawomirambroziak-pl.transla...en&_x_tr_hl=pl - a debate about Kalisia between supporter vs. sceptic of Kalisia=Kalisz theory
    Kalisz-like names appear at a number of places in "Polish lands", but as Polish lands mostly are outside of the generally assumed Slavic urheimat I would at a first glance regard something that just appears there non-Slavic in it's etymology. However, I see no Slavic etymology for that name. Also no Germanic and Celtic I don't know, but a number of old names from that area are considered to be derived from an IE langauge that was between Germanic and Balto-Slavic and that left water names like Oder/Odra, Warthe/Warta, Netze/Notec and Vistula (the German Weichsel is a later form).
    What make things even more complicated is that the various IE language families are interrelated anyhow. You have Slavic chelm for a hill and this is related to holm in German and guess what's the etymology for English hill itself.

    However, from today's Kalisz area is known that Celtic coins were minted. And if you say that Helsii are derived from Calisia then that tribe name even show the Germanic vowel shift, when k developed to h (like Catualda --> Hadwald, Clodwig --> Hlodwig, Ludwig etc.). This means that you for today's Kalisz area see the well known and common to bordering Silesia order of cultures/ethnicities: First Celtic and later Germanic. So there is no indication that the Germanic vowel shifted Helsii should be Balto-Slav related.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Zumoi (H) have no Germanic or Celtic etymology and it seems like a Balto-Slavic etymology is possible - but I said "possibly" in this case.
    Not sure how to rule that out. Also, a Dacian or Illyrian derived etymology would be possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Boulanes (52) were mentioned between Guthones (26) and Frugundians (40), so clearly it must have been somewhere in Central Poland?
    I see. You seem to identify them with the Polish ethnonym. But while a number of Slavic tribal names in what later became Poles showed up, Polanie were not amongst them and according to what I read that tribal name first showed up in the context with Mieszko's father or even one generation earlier, when that somewhat elevated area that later became the heart land of Poland/Wielkopolska (Poznan-Gniezno-Kruszewice?) was first settled (more densely). So Polanie seems to be a name for a tribe that was first composed in the 9th or 10th century.

    What's your take on that Polanie name?
    Last edited by rothaer; 05-01-2022 at 10:46 PM.

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    According to Pliny the Elder Vandals consisted of: Burgundi/Burgodiones, Varinnae/Varini, Gutones and Charini (these are not known from any other souce).

    So he classified Goths as a sub-group of Vandals (Vandili). But at least in later history Goths became distinct enough to not be considered Vandals. Avarini were a branch of Varini - so also Vandals. Phrungundiones/Frugundiones and Burgiones were two branches of the Burgundi, who migrated to new areas - so also Vandalic tribes.

    From later sources we know, that also the Silingi were counted among the Vandals (Vandili).

    Hasdingi was a much later name, it started to exist only after they migrated near the Roman border. It was a ruling dynasty which gave name to its subjects.
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