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Thread: Proto-Germanic (PGmc) genetic drift

  1. #1
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    Proto-Germanic (PGmc) genetic drift

    In my opinion these are the 11 so far available ancient DNA samples in which the Proto-Germanic genetic drift peaks:

    Their G25 scaled coordinates below, I also added Y-DNA hg labels:

    Code:
    PGmc_Test:NLD_LBA_I20062_female,0.12862,0.126941,0.073916,0.072029,0.036314,0.027331,0.00423,0.004846,0.002863,-0.017495,0.000325,0.009741,-0.019772,-0.028901,0.031759,0.003978,-0.006389,0.006334,0.001508,0.004002,0.004243,0.006059,0.004437,0.015665,-0.002395
    PGmc_Test:NLD_LBA_I11971_female,0.127482,0.120848,0.068636,0.066861,0.030467,0.01757,0.009635,0.004615,-0.003477,-0.014214,0.00341,0.002548,-0.009663,-0.012799,0.018458,0.002121,-0.007562,-0.000127,-0.00352,0.00075,0.001747,0.006183,0.003204,0.019882,0.000599
    PGmc_Test:DNK_Jutland_IA_VK582_I2a2a3_L801,0.136588,0.13405,0.070522,0.069445,0.036007,0.022869,0.009635,0.013615,0.012885,-0.004374,0.006333,0.019633,-0.014271,-0.021744,0.015472,0.010607,0.001304,0.007095,0.00176,0.02101,0.014974,-0.000247,0.000986,0.025666,-0.00467
    PGmc_Test:SWE_LN_RISE98_R1b_U106,0.121791,0.12491,0.070899,0.072029,0.041546,0.0251,0.012691,0.008077,0.003681,-0.00328,0.00341,0.008393,-0.005946,-0.014038,0.019544,0.019491,0.0103,0.005574,0.006662,0.013882,0.005989,0.00272,0.001849,-0.000602,-0.002395
    PGmc_Test:NOR_South_IA_VK390_R1a_Z284,0.121791,0.125926,0.076555,0.06783,0.040931,0.029005,0.003995,0.006231,0,-0.00893,-0.005684,0.002997,-0.011596,-0.010735,0.027551,0.007955,-0.009779,0.006208,0.008799,0.013006,0.018967,-0.000495,0.001972,0.007953,0.001197
    PGmc_Test:NOR_North_IA_VK418_R1b_U106,0.125205,0.132019,0.070144,0.064277,0.040315,0.019522,0.00423,0.013846,0.007567,-0.007107,-0.001786,-0.002847,-0.011001,-0.001514,0.031487,-0.005967,-0.029858,-0.0019,0.00352,0.003001,0.010606,0.000371,0,0.003012,-0.000838
    PGmc_Test:FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o_JK2065_female,0.135449,0.121864,0.083344,0.072352,0.047393,0.019522,-0.0094,0.005077,0.011453,0.001276,0.001137,0.002548,-0.011001,-0.013625,0.034609,0.0118,-0.004563,0.001647,0.012067,0.019384,0.000374,-0.001237,-0.004683,-0.002048,0.005389
    PGmc_Test:NOR_Mid_IA_VK523_female,0.125205,0.125926,0.07731,0.06783,0.048009,0.023148,-0.00094,0.012461,0.006749,-0.017677,-0.003248,0.002548,-0.005203,-0.007707,0.020358,0.013392,-0.002086,-0.002407,0.003394,0.004002,0.004492,0.000495,-0.004437,-0.001084,0.001916
    PGmc_Test:NLD_BA_I4070_R1b_U106,0.132035,0.128972,0.063733,0.058463,0.02185,0.019801,0.00282,0.003231,-0.007158,-0.007654,-0.005846,0.00015,-0.017691,-0.02202,0.019679,0.000796,-0.001304,-0.00152,-0.002765,0.007003,0.005865,-0.000371,0.003574,0.005061,0.000599
    PGmc_Test:DNK_Sealand_LNBA_VK214_female,0.117238,0.118817,0.079572,0.075905,0.048317,0.020638,-0.00094,0.01523,0.008181,-0.02278,-0.00682,-0.00045,-0.010852,-0.00289,0.023751,0.009546,-0.022948,0.01647,0.004148,-0.003377,0.018343,0.000742,0.000863,-0.000241,0.010897
    PGmc_Test:DNK_Sealand_IA_VK521_I1_M253,0.12862,0.131003,0.069013,0.063954,0.044008,0.022032,0,0.013615,0.008999,-0.010934,-0.003085,0.003447,-0.008028,-0.002752,0.020629,0,-0.020861,0.007728,0.005908,0.008879,0.012977,0.010263,-0.002588,0.010363,-0.002515
    All of the main Germanic-associated Y-DNA types are represented within this group:

    NLD_LBA_I20062_female
    NLD_LBA_I11971_female
    DNK_Jutland_IA_VK582_I2a2a3_L801
    SWE_LN_RISE98_R1b_U106
    NOR_South_IA_VK390_R1a_Z284
    NOR_North_IA_VK418_R1b_U106
    FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o_JK2065_female
    NOR_Mid_IA_VK523_female
    NLD_BA_I4070_R1b_U106
    DNK_Sealand_LNBA_VK214_female
    DNK_Sealand_IA_VK521_I1_M253

    Here are their average coordinates made using:

    https://dna-tools.xyz/calculate

    Code:
    PGmc_Test_Average,0.1272749,0.1264796,0.0730585,0.0682705,0.0395597,0.0224125,0.0032687,0.0091676,0.0047039,-0.0102881,-0.0010776,0.004428,-0.0113658,-0.0126114,0.0239361,0.0067017,-0.0085224,0.0041002,0.003771,0.008322,0.0089615,0.0022257,0.0004706,0.0076025,0.0007076
    =====

    And this is how they plot in North Europe PCA:

    https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#NorthEurope



    What do you think? Any better "candidates"?

    =====

    EDIT:

    Potential expansion of the PGmc cluster with two new samples (the ones added at the bottom of the list):

    Code:
    PGmc_Test:NLD_LBA_I20062_female,0.12862,0.126941,0.073916,0.072029,0.036314,0.027331,0.00423,0.004846,0.002863,-0.017495,0.000325,0.009741,-0.019772,-0.028901,0.031759,0.003978,-0.006389,0.006334,0.001508,0.004002,0.004243,0.006059,0.004437,0.015665,-0.002395
    PGmc_Test:NLD_LBA_I11971_female,0.127482,0.120848,0.068636,0.066861,0.030467,0.01757,0.009635,0.004615,-0.003477,-0.014214,0.00341,0.002548,-0.009663,-0.012799,0.018458,0.002121,-0.007562,-0.000127,-0.00352,0.00075,0.001747,0.006183,0.003204,0.019882,0.000599
    PGmc_Test:DNK_Jutland_IA_VK582_I2a2a3_L801,0.136588,0.13405,0.070522,0.069445,0.036007,0.022869,0.009635,0.013615,0.012885,-0.004374,0.006333,0.019633,-0.014271,-0.021744,0.015472,0.010607,0.001304,0.007095,0.00176,0.02101,0.014974,-0.000247,0.000986,0.025666,-0.00467
    PGmc_Test:SWE_LN_RISE98_R1b_U106,0.121791,0.12491,0.070899,0.072029,0.041546,0.0251,0.012691,0.008077,0.003681,-0.00328,0.00341,0.008393,-0.005946,-0.014038,0.019544,0.019491,0.0103,0.005574,0.006662,0.013882,0.005989,0.00272,0.001849,-0.000602,-0.002395
    PGmc_Test:NOR_South_IA_VK390_R1a_Z284,0.121791,0.125926,0.076555,0.06783,0.040931,0.029005,0.003995,0.006231,0,-0.00893,-0.005684,0.002997,-0.011596,-0.010735,0.027551,0.007955,-0.009779,0.006208,0.008799,0.013006,0.018967,-0.000495,0.001972,0.007953,0.001197
    PGmc_Test:NOR_North_IA_VK418_R1b_U106,0.125205,0.132019,0.070144,0.064277,0.040315,0.019522,0.00423,0.013846,0.007567,-0.007107,-0.001786,-0.002847,-0.011001,-0.001514,0.031487,-0.005967,-0.029858,-0.0019,0.00352,0.003001,0.010606,0.000371,0,0.003012,-0.000838
    PGmc_Test:FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o_JK2065_female,0.135449,0.121864,0.083344,0.072352,0.047393,0.019522,-0.0094,0.005077,0.011453,0.001276,0.001137,0.002548,-0.011001,-0.013625,0.034609,0.0118,-0.004563,0.001647,0.012067,0.019384,0.000374,-0.001237,-0.004683,-0.002048,0.005389
    PGmc_Test:NOR_Mid_IA_VK523_female,0.125205,0.125926,0.07731,0.06783,0.048009,0.023148,-0.00094,0.012461,0.006749,-0.017677,-0.003248,0.002548,-0.005203,-0.007707,0.020358,0.013392,-0.002086,-0.002407,0.003394,0.004002,0.004492,0.000495,-0.004437,-0.001084,0.001916
    PGmc_Test:NLD_BA_I4070_R1b_U106,0.132035,0.128972,0.063733,0.058463,0.02185,0.019801,0.00282,0.003231,-0.007158,-0.007654,-0.005846,0.00015,-0.017691,-0.02202,0.019679,0.000796,-0.001304,-0.00152,-0.002765,0.007003,0.005865,-0.000371,0.003574,0.005061,0.000599
    PGmc_Test:DNK_Sealand_LNBA_VK214_female,0.117238,0.118817,0.079572,0.075905,0.048317,0.020638,-0.00094,0.01523,0.008181,-0.02278,-0.00682,-0.00045,-0.010852,-0.00289,0.023751,0.009546,-0.022948,0.01647,0.004148,-0.003377,0.018343,0.000742,0.000863,-0.000241,0.010897
    PGmc_Test:DNK_Sealand_IA_VK521_I1_M253,0.12862,0.131003,0.069013,0.063954,0.044008,0.022032,0,0.013615,0.008999,-0.010934,-0.003085,0.003447,-0.008028,-0.002752,0.020629,0,-0.020861,0.007728,0.005908,0.008879,0.012977,0.010263,-0.002588,0.010363,-0.002515
    PGmc_Test:SWE_Ollsjo_BA_oll009_I1_M253,0.126344,0.133034,0.067127,0.063631,0.040623,0.016733,0.002585,0.005769,0.008795,0.00328,0.001786,0.01139,-0.005946,-0.000413,0.027958,0.014452,-0.016428,0.010515,0.003771,0.002501,0.006863,-0.007914,-0.004314,0.005302,-0.004431
    PGmc_Test:SWE_LNBA_Olsund_R1a_Z284,0.125205,0.121864,0.050534,0.070737,0.026159,0.02259,0.005405,0.002308,-0.023316,-0.019135,-0.000487,3e-04,-0.012933,-0.011973,0.020222,0.002652,-0.017211,0.002534,0.005405,-0.002501,0.002371,0.001113,0.0053,0.01687,-0.012693
    NLD_LBA_I20062_female
    NLD_LBA_I11971_female
    DNK_Jutland_IA_VK582_I2a2a3_L801
    SWE_LN_RISE98_R1b_U106
    NOR_South_IA_VK390_R1a_Z284
    NOR_North_IA_VK418_R1b_U106
    FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o_JK2065_female
    NOR_Mid_IA_VK523_female
    NLD_BA_I4070_R1b_U106
    DNK_Sealand_LNBA_VK214_female
    DNK_Sealand_IA_VK521_I1_M253
    SWE_Ollsjo_BA_oll009_I1_M253
    SWE_LNBA_Olsund_R1a_Z284 ---------- suggested by user Kale

    And new average:

    Code:
    PGmc_Test_Average_New,0.1270441,0.1266288,0.0708696,0.0681033,0.0386107,0.0219893,0.0033805,0.0083785,0.0028632,-0.0099249,-0.0008119,0.004646,-0.0110695,-0.0116239,0.0239598,0.0069864,-0.0097988,0.0044732,0.0038967,0.0070417,0.0082932,0.0013602,0.0004741,0.0081384,-0.0007185
    Distances to modern populations:

    Distance to: PGmc_Test_Average_New(n=13)
    0.02025764 Norwegian
    0.02100569 Swedish
    0.02124576 Icelandic
    0.02387195 Danish
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-03-2022 at 02:53 PM.

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  3. #2
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    ^^^
    As you can see these 11 samples plot close together in North Europe PCA despite being from a vast area in 5 different countries:

    - Netherlands (NLD) - three samples
    - Denmark (DNK) - three samples
    - Sweden (SWE) - one sample
    - Norway (NOR) - three samples
    - Finland (FIN) - Levanluhta outlier

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    I don't have all of those samples in my dataset, but interesting to note, the ones I do (RISE98, VK390, VK418, JK2065) are all rather high in WHG, especially JK2065 (but that's a lot of SHG/EHG inflating it)
    VK523, I4070, VK521 not as much, but still 18-19%.

    Where do lower WHG samples plot such as...
    I0099 - Germany_Halberstadt_LBA
    Olsund - Sweden_LNBA
    oll007.SG - Sweden_BAC
    RISE1281 - Denmark_Djursland_SingleGraveCulture.SG
    Last edited by Kale; 05-03-2022 at 04:24 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    Where do lower WHG samples plot such as...
    I0099 - Germany_Halberstadt_LBA
    Olsund - Sweden_LNBA
    oll007.SG - Sweden_BAC
    Here is how they plot:

    1. Olsund Battle Axe - male with R1a-Z284 haplogroup, plots within my PGmc cluster, I approve.
    2. Female oll007 - plots far away and dated to ca. 2700 BC, too old to be Proto-Germanic anyway.
    3. I0099 - far away, his Y-DNA is almost extinct today, and he lived south of possible PGmc area.

    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-03-2022 at 04:36 AM.

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    Cool, that would make Olsund the oldest one in that cluster yes? How about pushing it another ~100-200 years? ber1M.SG or RISE94.SG
    It looks like there are 2 more ancients in that cluster, which are they?
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    The last one you listed (RISE1281) looks kind of shifted in the Balto-Slavic direction (?) in my opinion:



    ^^^
    Arrow showing direction of his shift added:



    =====

    Now I will be afk, I will add RISE94 etc. later.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-03-2022 at 04:45 AM.

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    Maybe it's just centroid? Not shifting to either Balto-slavic, Celtic, or Germanic and just sits in the middle.
    Then again maybe not, proportions are rather interesting, ~29% EEF, 12% WHG, 59% Steppe. That's quite low HG for anywhere in Northwest Europe. Then again RISE94 is in the same boat, 26/12/62
    Last edited by Kale; 05-03-2022 at 04:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    I don't have all of those samples in my dataset, but interesting to note, the ones I do (RISE98, VK390, VK418, JK2065) are all rather high in WHG, especially JK2065 (but that's a lot of SHG/EHG inflating it)
    VK523, I4070, VK521 not as much, but still 18-19%.
    High WHG/SHG admix fits the Germanic substrate hypothesis:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...ate_hypothesis

    "The non-Indo-European substrate hypothesis attempts to explain the anomalous features of Proto-Germanic."

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  17. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    proportions [of RISE1281] are rather interesting, ~29% EEF, 12% WHG, 59% Steppe. That's quite low HG for anywhere in Northwest Europe. Then again RISE94 is in the same boat, 26/12/62
    Maybe this person/group just arrived to Scandinavia and had not yet mixed with local HGs (in northern Germany and in Scandinavia hunter-gatherers survived until the arrival of Steppe / PIE - but farmers also reached parts of south Scandinavia: in the island of Gotland before the arrival of IEs farmers co-existed with HGs without mixing much).
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-03-2022 at 05:21 AM.

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  19. #10
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    ^^^
    Seems I was right and RISE1281 was a recent intruder from the south:

    https://indo-european.eu/2021/01/rec...lithic-burial/
    Last edited by Tomenable; 05-03-2022 at 05:28 AM.

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