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Thread: Slavic Chronology

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    That is actually not true.
    Estonia_IA has a level of Siberian comparable or maybe lower than Modern Central Russians, but significantly lower than Mordvins. If we are talking about average EST_IA. And Kras001 as a measure of Siberian-ness.
    I noticed a difference between Estonia_Mainland_IA and Estonia_Saaremaa_IA.

    These mainland samples have more Siberian than samples from Saaremaa island:

    VII4 Iron Age Võhma, Lääne-Viru, Estonia - geographical coordinates: 59.5313, 25.8661
    V10 Iron Age Kunda, Lääne-Viru, Estonia - geographical coordinates: 59.4967, 26.5479
    0LS10 Iron Age Kunda, Lääne-Viru, Estonia - geographical coordinates: 59.4967, 26.5479

    It probably also indicates an ethnic difference between Saaremaa and Mainland.

    Average of those 3 samples below:

    Code:
    Estonia_Mainland_IA,0.128241,0.0978293,0.0961657,0.094639,0.044008,0.027703,0.0057967,0.0156917,0.0064087,-0.0403957,0.0086607,-0.0142873,0.025768,0.0062847,-0.009591,0.0127727,0.014994,-0.001098,0.0038547,0.0123393,0.0072787,-0.0007007,0.0006163,-0.008957,-0.0001597
    Distance to: Estonia_Mainland_IA
    0.03872020 Finnish_East
    0.04078308 Estonian
    0.04191946 Ingrian
    0.04210824 Finnish_Southeast
    0.04304483 Karelian
    0.04696732 Latvian
    0.04735443 Vepsian

    ^^^
    By contrast, samples from Saaremaa are closest to modern Latvians.

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  3. #212
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    Distance to: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_0LS10_1_year_659_BCE
    0.04819776 Finnish_East
    0.05069656 Karelian
    0.05383309 Vepsian
    (...)

    Distance to: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2_year_623_BCE
    0.04638503 Estonian
    0.04960257 Finnish_Southeast
    0.04975509 Finnish_East
    (...)

    Distance to: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_VII4_1_year_543_BCE
    0.04040771 Estonian
    0.04161962 Ingrian
    0.04206470 Finnish_Southeast
    (...)

    ^^^
    On the other hand if you check samples from Saaremaa Iron Age, they are all closer to Latvians than to Estonians.

  4. #213
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    Yeap, that is correct. And samples from Saaremaa are actually picked up by even Lithuanians as a source when modelling G25.
    Which made me believe at some point that West Lithuanian origin Culture of Stone Circled Barrows (North Lithuanian Barrows Culture) was responsible for planting N-L1025 into Baltics. But maybe it planted just one particular L1025 subbranch But say L551 was already present in NE Lithuania before. Hard to say.

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  6. #214
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    ^^^ I think N-L1025 was planted into Baltics along the south-western passage from this map:

    https://i.imgur.com/lVLp8pS.png - which is actually exactly what the arrows in this map show...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^^^ I think N-L1025 was planted into Baltics along the south-western passage from this map:

    https://i.imgur.com/lVLp8pS.png - which is actually exactly what the arrows in this map show...
    You are not wrong. L550 was planted likely via South-Western passage. Although there are no L550 L1025- around it. However Saaremaa, Sweden and South Finland has different L550 L1025-.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Distance to: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_0LS10_1_year_659_BCE
    0.04819776 Finnish_East
    0.05069656 Karelian
    0.05383309 Vepsian
    (...)

    Distance to: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2_year_623_BCE
    0.04638503 Estonian
    0.04960257 Finnish_Southeast
    0.04975509 Finnish_East
    (...)

    Distance to: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_VII4_1_year_543_BCE
    0.04040771 Estonian
    0.04161962 Ingrian
    0.04206470 Finnish_Southeast
    (...)

    ^^^
    On the other hand if you check samples from Saaremaa Iron Age, they are all closer to Latvians than to Estonians.
    ^^^
    These three samples (0LS10, V10 and VII4) are actually from the North-Eastern corner of Estonia, close to Ingria - here:



    ^^^
    So they could come along the north-western passage from the direction of Ingria. But Saaremaa came along SW passage.

  10. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    So they could come along the north-western passage from the direction of Ingria. But Saaremaa came along SW passage.
    There's an LBA/EIA sample(NEO538) from Vologda in the new Allentoft paper that has 25%(possibly more) Siberian. NW passage looks to have been very much apart from Estonia_IA. Saaremaa_IA looks just more heavily Baltic plus maybe a little bit of Scandinavian but not different otherwise.

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  12. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uka View Post
    You completely misunderstood me then, because you were disputing something that I never argued. I disputed the claim M458 couldn't be Venedic as he was claiming it was Balti-Slavic which has zero evidence. R-Z280 is Balto-Slavic however, and had diversity in Balts AND Slavs stretching back between the Iron Age and Bronze Age. Unlike M458 which has zero diversity in Balts(all of which comes from the Slavic expansion), and only has a diversity in Slavs mostly from late antiquity to the early medieval(with exception of the Poles), which supports the idea that Proto-Slavic/Pre-Slavic developed pretty late from a Southern Baltic/Balto-Slavic dialect. Otherwise, if one is to argue Proto-Slavic diverged 1500BCE, well then, Z280>CTS1211 has diversity in Slavs going back that far so it likely was Proto-Slavic. Unless one is willing to accept the late divergence of Proto-Slavic from Balto-Slavic which is supported by the diversity of M458 and Y3120 in the Slavic population.

    As Ph2ter showed, most diversity of both branches in Slavs doesnt stretch further than 300BCE.
    On point Uka. Even if Baltic and Slavic split as late as 600 BCE, as proposed here by a poster, it is still long before the explosive growth of L1029 and Y3120. That means we had pre proto Slav in place when these clades grew. Where do these clans and tribes fit in linguistically as they grew from approximately 300 BCE - 300 CE? Not as Balto-Slavic, but as either pre proto Slavic itself, or some sister dialect that helped form pre-proto Slavic into Proto Slavic.

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  14. #219
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    And in my "Proto-Germanic thread", there was a discussion about how N1c migrated to Sweden:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....570#post846570

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    The problem with placing Proto-Germanic near the Mälaren Valley, is the early-Tarand (likely Finnic) settlement there.

    I don't find "Finnics being primitive" a convincing argument for explaining the lack of Finnic to Proto-Germanic loan words. Much of the pre-Roman IA (500-100BC) is considered a period of cultural regression throughout Scandinavia as the Bronze Age trade networks collapsed, the temperature fell and people began looking inwards. Grave goods almost disappear entirely, interpreted as a sign of decreased social stratification. https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/ge...FULLTEXT01.pdf

    The early-Tarand builders were seafarers, agriculturalists and built fortified settlements as segmentary political centers, or to defend their fields. Notably, they also lacked much in they way of grave goods. Valter Lang and Marika Mägi argue this was probably an intentional social/religious decision, rather than a lack of material. I've seen the same argued for Scandinavia. I made this thread awhile ago on the topic of Tarands: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-Age-Estonians

    IMO, the early-Tarand people would have been technologically/socially equal to the Nordic IA population they lived next to in the Mälaren Valley. More on that in the dissertation I keep mentioning.
    And:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    There was eastern material influence (likely Finnic) in Sweden during the LBA/IA, specifically the Mälaren Valley in the form of early & typical-Tarand graves. See this dissertation for more details: http://uu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/...FULLTEXT01.pdf

    The Tarand builders probably brought N-L550 to Sweden, as it was found in roughly half of the Estonian early-Tarand samples.

  15. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    NW passage looks to have been very much apart from Estonia_IA.
    I'm just going by the arrows from that map, which show that migration along NW passage could reach North-Eastern Estonia. But not Saaremaa - which is depicted as part of SW passagge.

    Couldn't people coming along the NW passage be Komi-like autosomally? And those coming along the SW passage could perhaps be Mordvin-like instead.

    Modern Komi average:

    Code:
    Komi,0.1187174,0.0307705,0.0850408,0.0682822,-0.0046161,0.0141677,0.0094945,0.0130841,-0.0030884,-0.0298138,0.0099383,-0.0086022,0.0182258,-0.0062204,-0.0087676,-0.0047601,-0.0014733,-0.0014444,-0.0039595,-0.0039646,0.0014723,-0.0011993,-0.0001234,0.0012051,0.0004191
    Or do you think that Komi genetic structure is also recent?

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